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First off, I'd really like to thank Zula for pointing us all in the direction of that Alan Dawson discussion in his post in the "overrated/Underrated" thread. Dawson is a guy who's playing I've always admired tremendously, and it was a real treat to read testimonials and anecdotes from collegues and former students. His is a prime example of the value of teaching. His influence as a pedegogue in some ways exceeds his legacy as a player. But it's all of a piece really. Dawson is still with us in both the music he left here for us to learn, AND the influence he wields through his proteges who are still here, with us, making music.

I'd be interested to hear from people here about their takes on great drummers, on the drummer's function within the rhythm section, and how this communicates to the listener. I'd also be VERY interested to hear from the drummers on this forum about these issues.

To me one of the great joys of playing jazz is a dialogue with a really happening drummer. The constant communication that's going on within a small-band rhythm section isn't something that gets talked about much. The onlly serious book I know of on the subject is Ingrid Monsen's "Saying Something," but it's prose is so dense (it's actually a cleaned up version of her doctoral dissertation) that it's tough to read if you're not used to academic writing. I find the subject fascinating. In New Orleans, some people call drummers "Guardians of the Groove." There are various types of religious and ceremonial overtones, and it's not unheard of for jazz and funk drummers to be students of voodoo, and sometimes acolytes.

The endless dichotomy between 'feel' and technique fascinates me. A drummer like Tiny Kahn, for instance, who friends and collegues often described as having no chops at all, was widely admired for his great time feel. The great New Orleans drummer Zigaboo Modeliste has had, as far as I know, no formal training at all. I never saw him the first time around with the original Meters, but I'd seen the "Funky Meters" (Art Neville's band, with two original Meters, Art and bassist George Porter Jr.) many times and thought Russell Batiste was the last word in funk drumming. Russell is a formally trained percussionist with great technique and stick control. Then I saw Zig with the original Meters last spring and suddenly understood what all the fuss was about. Zig does everything wrong, rudiments-wise, but it works for him (kind of like Dizzy puffing his cheeks out, or Brad Turner's off-center embouchure). He leaves a lot more space than Russell, who's all over the place, although his pocket never goes away. But somehow Zig is able to make the space be as funky as the notes.

Morgan, I liked that you mentioned Levon Helm, who's another guy I find very interesting. Funky, low tech approach. Wood shell drums. He really makes you hear the wood. I'd love to play with the guy. I don't know if I'll get a chance to, though, now that his club in New Orleans has gone belly up.

Local drummers you don't hear enough about, in my opinion:

Joel Fountain, who's in Dallas these days.

The late Al Wiertz. A powerfull, idiosyncratic player who really had a unique style.

Stan Taylor, who in some ways carries in the Wiertz tradition, though he'll probably kill me when he reads this, since he likes to think he sounds like Tony Williams.

Blaine Wykjord. Great player. Great teacher. Musicians in Vancouver all know his worth, the listening public could probably stand to hear more about him. An underappreciated local treasure.

[ReneCM]

Wow... well, where to start? I don't know... how about Billy Higgins:

"A drummer must be kind."

I like that quote... it really illustrates a lot of what I think the spirit of being a drummer is about. A kind person will be a kind and giving musician, somebody easy to converse with, somebody supportive and with whom you share rapport and camraderie. It's very important to never play the drums with a negative attitude, no matter what the music. There's no other instrument that can be so two faced as the drums. Play them with joy and love and care and gratitude, and they can sound as melifluous and sweet as a violin. Play them with a chip on your shoulder or some hate in your heart, and you won't be able to hide anywhere. You look at these pictures of Higgins grinning from ear to ear, and tell me you can't hear that on his records?

Who was the first drummer I really listened to? Buddy Rich. I never really appreciated Buddy for his musicality until I was much older, but when I was about 14... my grandfather bought me "Krupa and Rich". I loved Gene too. All that style, and I marveled at the fact that Gene could sound so great next to a giant like Buddy. I mean, Gene always sounded hip and swinging, and came up with his own little things that made up for musically what he didn't have in the technique department that Buddy did have.

However, the first drummer where the lightbulbs went off... the one who made me feel right away that jazz was special music was Art Blakey. The record was !Impulse!Art Blakey!Jazz Messengers!... the first track "Alamode"... Art comes out like a locomotive.... huge crash followed by this propulsive swing that is totally relentless and overpowering. I got that record when I was 14 too... I still think it's one of the most amazing things ever recorded. Art doesn't solo on the record... not four bars. It would take me another couple of years before I discovered "Caravan" and "Free For All" and some of the stuff where he really stretches and does his soloing thing. I was just mesmerized by the TIME that Art was playing. Art really made me understand what playing time was about.

Drummers have this whole unique vocabulary that is not shared with the other instruments... so when 2 drummers get together, you might not understand what they're talking about, but they sure do.

oops... gotta run... more later... if any of this was pretty much blabbering and nonsensical, I apologize.

[BritneySpearsFun@@@]

John,

You're right about Alan Dawson, he was a great drummer but has an even greater legacy as a teacher. Tony Williams and Joe Labarbera were both students of Alan's. Keith Copeland, who used to teach at the Banff centre (son of Ray Copleland) was also one of his students.

There is a great book by John Ramsay called The Drummer's Complete Vocabulary, as Tought By Alan Dawson.

I think it's interesting to note that while there are alot of great self tought drummers with minimal rudimental skills, the majority of the truly great jazz drummers are extremely well schooled in what I would call American Military style rudimental drumming (wich was a huge part of Alan Dawsons teaching). There are exceptions to this of course.

For me, when I hear alot of younger jazz drummers (and even some older ones) it's often the weakest link in their playing. I think it often gets neglected because people think it will stifle their creativity, or maybe no one teaches it anymore. I remember a drum teacher actually trying to discurage me from practicing rudimental snare drum solos. I think he said "ya, that's fine, if you want to sound like Philly Joe". Um....

I'm not saying chops good/creativity bad, I'm saying if you're going to play jazz drums, you better learn this shit.

Also, I totaly dig those cats you're talking about John. I wouldn't want anyone to think is was cutting them. I was thinking in terms of jazz drumming in specific.

[BritneySpearsFun@@@]

I just realized that doesn't have much to do with the drummers role in the R.S.

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Oh hey Jesse I'm a great fan of technique. Technique will set you free. I just find it interesting that there are players who, for whatever reason, did not have access to that kind of information but have managed to find a way around that handicap and still make a statement. It's be nuts to teach that way, you'd be doing your students a great dis-service.

For my own self, I've found I've made my greatest advances when I had access to a master teacher, and I've wasted the greatest amount of energy spinning my wheels when I didn't. I'm kind of feeling like I'm doing that now, and I had made plans to study with Tony Dagradi at Loyola in New Orleans this year, but obviously events have put that on hold for a bit.

Morgan. I have a Billy Higgins story for you:

In the late 80s I had a house gig with an R&B band in Toronto at a place called the Yorkville Bar and Grill. Mostly we played the Stax-Volt Atlantic Records songbook but the first set (which was a 'dinner' set) we'd pick our way through a few standards in the fake book.

The piano player was a serious jazz guy named Connie Maynard, who died a few years back. Older (50ish) black guy who'd knocked around a bit. One night during jazzfest he said a buddy of his was coming down to sit in. The guy shows up, introduces himself as "Bill" and sits down at the kit. He played the jazz stuff great (although I wasn't enough of a player in those days to realize how great. I now realize he was treating us with kid gloves so we wouldn't get confused) and also stayed for the first set of R&B material, which he also played great on.

It wasn't till after he'd gone that our regular drummer said "Man! Didn't you know who that was? That was Billy F***ing Higgins, man!"

I'm glad I didn't know. I would have been too nervous to play.

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There's a lot of drummers in New Orleans who've made a serious study of this stuff, because so much of the tradition there grows out of it. In the late 19th and early 20th century there were a lot of drummers who played both marching band AND dance band gigs, so there was a lot of cross-fertilization of vocabulary. That funky, parade-style snare stuff grows out of that. And that stuff is ALL about stick control and manipulation, because otherwise it doesn't swing, it's just corny "rented-a-tent rented-a-tent" stuff.

Sorry, I'm rewriting my masters thesis here.:-)

It's called:

The Spanish Tinge: Afro-Cuban Clave in New Orleans Drumming, Past and Present.

[zithromaxlinks]

You know what they say.....

"So many drummers, so little..."

Aw, never mind.

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Fraser Macpherson once told me the only good drummer is a dead drummer but then he hired Rudy Petschaeur so I guess he was just kidding.

[gorbasevhuynani]

Want an underrated drummer? Dafnis Prieto. Ever check him out, Jesse?

Speaking of underrated drummers - whatever happened to Eddie Gladden? I remember him tearing it up with Dexter in the latter part of Dex's career. Victor Lewis is another cat who seems to have fallen off the map somewhat...

Al

[BritneySpearsFun@@@]

Victor Lewis is still going strong. As far as I know he's very highly regarded in NY and Europe. He turns up on all kinds of stuff and usually has his own band on the go.

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Victor_Lewis.html

I don't really know the other cats you mentioned.

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I caught Victor with Bobby Watson at Yoshi's in Oakland last July.

[ReneCM]

Dafnis Prieto is great. His first CD "to the saints" or something... I can't remember the title... but yeah, he's a baad cat.

[gorbasevhuynani]

If found this on Eddie Gladden - apparently he passed away in 2003.

http://www.jazzhouse.org/gone/lastpo...dit=1065630689
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=16314

Anybody who caught Dexter on his last visit here (or during the late 70's - 80's) can attest to Eddie's intense sense of swing. He was one of those drummers who really kicked the band's collective ass.

Al

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Whenever rhythm section guys decide to be candid about what they do, I'm all ears. Horn players sometimes get a lot of attention, but it's the guys in the back line who make all the difference.

Here's Dave Robbins being interviewd by Karen Plato:

"As a sideman the first rule is fitting in. I feel very lucky because I think I get hired to play how I play, not to play like somebody else wants me to play. That makes my job much easier and more enjoyable because I don't have to second guess myself. (for Junction, that's not an issue because there is no single leader)

I do, though, approach every group differently. The bass player has as big if not bigger impact than the leader on how I will approach the group. If the bassist is a swinger or a groover, then I'm goin' in lookin' to swing or groove as hard as I can. If they're more interplay oriented, I won't be looking for that cookin thing, but a more conversational relationship. That same process happens for the whole rhythm section later. With soloists, they are either lookin to float over top of the rhythm section (while it grooves and swings along underneath) or get into interplay with someone. Some soloists only interact with drums and others will look for anyone at anytime. That takes a long time to figure out in a band. In my experience it doesn't happen with pickup bands."


The link to the rest of the interview is on the portal page of this site. For anybody who just skips straight here to the forum, take the time to read some of the interviews on the home page. You'll be glad you did.

[Agitoligflise]

I played with Eddie Gladden at Augie's (now called "Smoke") in NYC, the year was 1992. Thrilling.

[clitlyphype]

John Doheny wrote: Quote:

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We were in the Rembrandt Lounge on Davie, and the bar tab had expanded onto a second page, so...

The one he'd use on me in lessons if I played something too fast (so it didn't swing) was a combination of 'amused smile' and a laconic "what's your hurry?"

[gamecasta]

I've never heard anyone play brushes with the feel Bobby Thomas gets on the Montgomery Brothers' Groove Yard. Awesome record. Another guy who really swings is Roy McCurdy, who played on Cannonball Adderley's 'Live' At The Club and Live in Japan. A guy who really plays originally is Pat Mastellotto from the new King Crimson, he plays a lot of improvised music on an entirely electronic kit.