[NADALA]

Here is my idea. Run several pipelines from the ocean to a site with a high temperature. Build 1 solar tower charged specifially with pumping in the ocean water. Build several more to turn the water into steam and seperate the salt. Then use the salt collected to replace the water as the heat sorce, set up the salt where it then becomes molten and heats up the water both creating energy and clean water for both drinking and irrigation, not to mention the self contained energy system with a lot of excess energy to sell.

Is this feasable? Or is it just too cost prohibative? It seems like ~30 billion could cover the cost, and over time the benefits of such an investment would pay back in spades.

[Immerymopay]

I know a few places are already thinking of doing that same thing, but right on the ocean.

The whole steam, salt separation, create energy and drinking water thing. There is a concept out and it actually looks pretty cool. Looks complicated, but is actually very simple.


Would be cool to move these things further inland to create new communities and what not. Environmental people would never allow it to happen though.
They had rather let us ALL die and EVERYONE loss jobs.


There is some small fish in CA that no one cares about, that they think is threatened, so they have stopped all the water supply to 3/4 of California's crops, which are now all dead or dying. It is a very small minority group that was able to get the water cut off too.


In a desert like that though, would have to be somewhere where you don't have to fight against the sand from barring your new community.

[Diortarkivoff]

put the crack pipe down matey

[Varbaiskkic]

So you´d then have water in the desert.
What then ? The sand is still just going to be sand.

[NADALA]

So you´d then have water in the desert.
What then ? The sand is still just going to be sand.

tell that to pheonix arizona.
Sandstorms set off in the sahara drop on both the american plains, and the rainforest of south america. The crop productions in the midwest US iirc, benefit from this sand dropping in their fields.

[Varbaiskkic]

tell that to pheonix arizona.

Are you trying to compare this



with this ?

[Immerymopay]

So you´d then have water in the desert.
What then ? The sand is still just going to be sand.

You been to a beach? Stuff still grows.


Heck, they could always just plant bamboo everywhere. All that needs is water!

Those pictures, the entire Sahara isn't like that either. Those are the places that I would be worried about the community being berried.

[ATTILAGLIC]

Wouldnt you have to bring in some topsoil too? Sea oats will grow in sand dunes. I dont know bout much else. We should just pave the damn thing.

[Freedjome]

it makes sense if you use the energy to make electricity and water

[NADALA]

Are you trying to compare this



with this ?

how about this:
to this:

Dubai is pretty well know for being a city that sprang up out of the desert. Do you disagree?

[Varbaiskkic]

I´m not a geologist and i´m not familiar with how Dubai´s soil looks, but from my understanding i always thought the Sahara desert was pretty much just a sandy desert, with barely any soil for anything to attach to.

[NADALA]

I´m not a geologist and i´m not familiar with how Dubai´s soil looks, but from my understanding i always thought the Sahara desert was pretty much just a sandy desert, with barely any soil for anything to attach to.

that is true, but mainly because there are no water resources throughout. There are actual oasis in the sahara (though they are very few and far between) while it is not the lush depictions one would find from hollywood, the fawna can be quite diverse and thick. To me this proves that where there is fresh water, life will take root, even in a desert. Sure, it may take decades to make the land habitable for cropstuffs...but in the long run is seems like a no brainer, as it would (with enough towers) be able to produce an endless water supply and cheap, sustainable electricity.

[DoctorBretonDen]

that is true, but mainly because there are no water resources throughout. There are actual oasis in the sahara (though they are very few and far between) while it is not the lush depictions one would find from hollywood, the fawna can be quite diverse and thick. To me this proves that where there is fresh water, life will take root, even in a desert. Sure, it may take decades to make the land habitable for cropstuffs...but in the long run is seems like a no brainer, as it would (with enough towers) be able to produce an endless water supply and cheap, sustainable electricity.

It is a very slow process I don't know if decades would do it. On some level you need things that can grow under those condition to grow, die, get damp and decay to form the conditions for another type of plant to grow, die, get damp, decay for the right conditions for another type of plant, etc. etc. until you get to the point where you can grow something like Chile, Corn or Cotton.

[frequensearules]

Here is my idea. Run several pipelines from the ocean to a site with a high temperature. Build 1 solar tower charged specifially with pumping in the ocean water. Build several more to turn the water into steam and seperate the salt. Then use the salt collected to replace the water as the heat sorce, set up the salt where it then becomes molten and heats up the water both creating energy and clean water for both drinking and irrigation, not to mention the self contained energy system with a lot of excess energy to sell.

Is this feasable? Or is it just too cost prohibative? It seems like ~30 billion could cover the cost, and over time the benefits of such an investment would pay back in spades.

If the main source of power is going to be solar, why not just boil off sea water to spin steam turbines then collect the steam as fresh water?

Actually most of what you wrote makes no sense. Water is not a heat source (in this scenario), salt is not a fuel. Salt melts at ~800°C, what do you need molten salt for?

[NADALA]

If the main source of power is going to be solar, why not just boil off sea water to spin steam turbines then collect the steam as fresh water?

Actually most of what you wrote makes no sense. Water is not a heat source (in this scenario), salt is not a fuel. Salt melts at ~800°C, what do you need molten salt for?

initially you use the water as the steam source (heating the top of the tower through a mirror array)... once enough salt is seperated from the water you can then use the array to molten the salt, far exceeding the temp at which water boils. This is beneficial because that heat could evaporate even more water, and the molten salt will cool at a much slower rate, giving you continued heat even when the sun goes down, thus producing electricity for a considerably longer amount of time. Seeing that you are gaining salt that can continue to be used as a heat source it is virtually a closed system where sea water provides both the salt and water necessary, while the abundancy of sunlight completes the system.

[frequensearules]

initially you use the water as the steam source (heating the top of the tower through a mirror array)... once enough salt is seperated from the water you can then use the array to molten the salt, far exceeding the temp at which water boils. This is beneficial because that heat could evaporate even more water, and the molten salt will cool at a much slower rate, giving you continued heat even when the sun goes down, thus producing electricity for a considerably longer amount of time. Seeing that you are gaining salt that can continue to be used as a heat source it is virtually a closed system where sea water provides both the salt and water necessary, while the abundancy of sunlight completes the system.

But the heat source is STILL the sun. Why waste energy trying to heat salt when that heat can be added to the water directly?

As far as thermal capacity goes... hot water storage tanks are efficient enough to provide hot water while the sun is down, no need to store the heat in salt, then transfer it back to water.

There are many more reasons why you would want to use water as the thermal medium:

• Thermal capacitance
• Its natural phase (water is routable and can be spread thin across heat exchangers to increase thermal transfer rates)
• Container availability. (there are numerous containers that can handle the pressures and temperatures of boiling water, so safety and cost are considered.
• Safety - salt is molten at 800°C under atmospheric pressure, but you must consider the fact that you want this in a closed container. Pressures and temperatures would be dangerous

Send the salt to China, I say.

EDIT: Also, ocean/sea water is not just salt and water, any of the other crap that is floating in there will remain after boiling. There may be a significant engineering effort to ensure salt is the only remnant.

[NADALA]

But the heat source is STILL the sun. Why waste energy trying to heat salt when that heat can be added to the water directly?

As far as thermal capacity goes... hot water storage tanks are efficient enough to provide hot water while the sun is down, no need to store the heat in salt, then transfer it back to water.

There are many more reasons why you would want to use water as the thermal medium:

• Thermal capacitance
• Its natural phase (water is routable and can be spread thin across heat exchangers to increase thermal transfer rates)
• Container availability. (there are numerous containers that can handle the pressures and temperatures of boiling water, so safety and cost are considered.
• Safety - salt is molten at 800°C under atmospheric pressure, but you must consider the fact that you want this in a closed container. Pressures and temperatures would be dangerous

Send the salt to China, I say.

EDIT: Also, ocean/sea water is not just salt and water, any of the other crap that is floating in there will remain after boiling. There may be a significant engineering effort to ensure salt is the only remnant.

To the edit there would have to be a filtration system at the coast that would filter out the non needed particulates as well as any sealife etc.

As to your argument of it being a waste to use molten salt as the heat storage, everything i have ever read says that it is by far the best way to store heat.

From wiki: [edit] Molten salt storage
A variety of fluids have been tested to transport the sun's heat, including water, air, oil, and sodium, but molten salt was selected as best. Molten salt is used in solar power tower systems because it is liquid at atmosphere pressure, it provides an efficient, low-cost medium in which to store thermal energy, its operating temperatures are compatible with today's high-pressure and high-temperature steam turbines, and it is non-flammable and nontoxic. In addition, molten salt is used in the chemical and metals industries as a heat-transport fluid, so experience with molten-salt systems exists in non-solar settings.

The molten salt is a mixture of 60 percent sodium nitrate and 40 percent potassium nitrate, commonly called saltpeter. The salt melts at 430 °F (220 °C) and is kept liquid at 550 °F (290 °C) in an insulated cold storage tank. The uniqueness of this solar system is in de-coupling the collection of solar energy from producing power, electricity can be generated in periods of inclement weather or even at night using the stored thermal energy in the hot salt tank. Normally tanks are well insulated and can store energy for up to a week. As an example of their size, tanks that provide enough thermal storage to power a 100-megawatt turbine for four hours would be about 30 feet tall and 80 feet in diameter.

The Solar Tres power plant in Spain is expected to be the first commercial solar thermal power plant to utilize molten salt for heat storage and nighttime generation"




water just will not retain the heat necessary to generate the steam necessary to turn those turbines overnight...

[frequensearules]

To the edit there would have to be a filtration system at the coast that would filter out the non needed particulates as well as any sealife etc.

As to your argument of it being a waste to use molten salt as the heat storage, everything i have ever read says that it is by far the best way to store heat.

From wiki: [edit] Molten salt storage
A variety of fluids have been tested to transport the sun's heat, including water, air, oil, and sodium, but molten salt was selected as best. Molten salt is used in solar power tower systems because it is liquid at atmosphere pressure, it provides an efficient, low-cost medium in which to store thermal energy, its operating temperatures are compatible with today's high-pressure and high-temperature steam turbines, and it is non-flammable and nontoxic. In addition, molten salt is used in the chemical and metals industries as a heat-transport fluid, so experience with molten-salt systems exists in non-solar settings.

The molten salt is a mixture of 60 percent sodium nitrate and 40 percent potassium nitrate, commonly called saltpeter. The salt melts at 430 °F (220 °C) and is kept liquid at 550 °F (290 °C) in an insulated cold storage tank. The uniqueness of this solar system is in de-coupling the collection of solar energy from producing power, electricity can be generated in periods of inclement weather or even at night using the stored thermal energy in the hot salt tank. Normally tanks are well insulated and can store energy for up to a week. As an example of their size, tanks that provide enough thermal storage to power a 100-megawatt turbine for four hours would be about 30 feet tall and 80 feet in diameter.

The Solar Tres power plant in Spain is expected to be the first commercial solar thermal power plant to utilize molten salt for heat storage and nighttime generation"

Very interesting!

However, did you pay attention to the part I highlighted above?

[NADALA]

Very interesting!

However, did you pay attention to the part I highlighted above?

i know, it isn't a perfect closed system...we have to bring in a bit of potassium nitrate, but again, 9/10ths of all the supplies needed would be free of charge (sun,water,salt) and though the initial cost of creating the pipelines/filtration systems/thermal tower arrays/steam turbines and condensors would be steep, once in place with a long term view 30years or so... it seems like a win, win.

[frequensearules]

i know, it isn't a perfect closed system...we have to bring in a bit of potassium nitrate, but again, 9/10ths of all the supplies needed would be free of charge (sun,water,salt) and though the initial cost of creating the pipelines/filtration systems/thermal tower arrays/steam turbines and condensors would be steep, once in place with a long term view 30years or so... it seems like a win, win.

The salt in sea water is mostly Sodium Chloride, not Sodium Nitrate, so I fail to see where Sodium Nitrate will come from.

Sorry to be so persistent, but I actually did a bunch of research on a solution to the same problem that you address. Here are some pics.




The flower thingie follows the sun. The "petals" of the flower concentrate the sun's energy to the center, where photovoltaics or plumbing can be placed to create electricity or heat water.