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Old 09-21-2012, 08:18 AM   #1
QxmFwtlam

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I know in PA, there is a brother/sister combo (Both are top ranked Juniors) that play on the same team against boys. Also I believe my alma mater now plays golf against 2 all-girls HS. I don't think there is a sep league for girls. . Not sure how the state tournament works because the sister won the individual for the girls.
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Old 09-21-2012, 08:33 AM   #2
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IMO, the rules need to be re-written. If a young lady is good enough to play with (and beat) the boys, and she wants to do so, let her tee it up. I can't imagine a coach complaining about getting beat fair and square. Who cares if she is wearing a skort? How else is she going to improve enough to advance later on in her career if there is not enough female competition at the 2A level in rural Idaho?
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:04 AM   #3
Heessduernbub

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You wrote this as I was writing mine. I have to disagree with this statement for two reasons. One is that since football is obviously a sport with bigger boys playing, faster and stronger and it is a contact sport, emphasis on contact, most girls cannot physically compete on the same field as the boys and thus there is not as much interest by the girls to play the sport, thus the following logic is that is why there is not a division between boys and girls in this sport at this time in high school. It's never been an option. In this case, there were not enough girls to sign up, so there is NO girls team, which makes the boys team the only golf team, thus by definition becoming "The Golf Team", not to boys golf team. If there were a current distinction between the boys and girls golf team, then I would say she should play with the girls even though she may be able to compete with the boys. .. Until that time, it renders the argument of girls/boys football moot since there is only one option. At this school, this year, there is only one option for golf as well.

You are probably right as well, that there was some kid who can barely get the ball off of the tee who didn't make the team and now his parents are crying. My advice is, get better than the number 10 kid on the team (assuming 5 var and 5 jv) and go out and make the team.
Golf is in individual sport which can be set up for team play. Football is a team sport. One cannot play football as an individual. If not enough kids try out for a football team, there is no opportunity for you to play. You must have 11 kids suit up. In this girl's situation, there was not enough girls signed up for "a formal team". But, she could still compete for the girls individual competitions.

I am not for/against either solution. I am merely playing devil's advocate. From what I can tell, the verbiage clearly designates girl's team and boy's team. If there isn't enough players for a girl's team, then, in golf, you would/could still compete for the girl's individual trophies and championships.

The sad part of this is the parents of the boys that are complaining. If I had a son (I have a daughter, btw), I would tell him to practice more and quit his whining.

My guess is that cooler heads will prepare and she will get to keep on playing on the boys team. The administration set that precedent when they let her play last year.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:54 AM   #4
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If she is playing by the same rules as all of her male competitors it shouldn't be an issue. There have been females play in a PGA Tour event so this shouldn't be any different to me IMO
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:04 AM   #5
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There are multiple ways to look at it and not everyone is going to agree with either.

One one side, there is a boys team and a girls team. So, it could be argued that she shouldn't be allowed on the boys team. And, the "girls have been allowed to play football" arguement is not valid here, IMO. It's not "the boys football team". It's just "football team". There is no male/female designation.

It's not the boys fault that not enough girls signed up for a formal team.
(In 2012, however, only three girls turned out for Castleford's girls' squad, one too few to field a formal team. Rather than play as an individual, Harr, the No. 3 female golfer in Idaho in her age group with a 2.2 handicap, won the Idaho High School Activities Association's permission to play with Castleford's boys' team provided she qualified every week.)

The association could have very easily said, she had to play as an individaul, in girls competitions. But, now they're are going to waffle because some boys parents probably complained to his coach because that girl "took his spot".

On the other side of the coin, who cares if a girl is on the boys team, as long as she is playing from the same tees. My dad coached h.s. golf when Nancy Lopez played on the boys team at her h.s. From the stories he's told me, he couldn't care less. But, the boys on his team couldn't handle getting beat by a girl. And, they generally played worse because the were trying so hard to not get beat by a girl, instead of playing their own game.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:12 AM   #6
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Take the lowest two scores and have the highest score used twice. Ive seen it done.
That seems exploitable to me.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:25 AM   #7
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If she plays the same tee's as the boys I see it as fair, but if she gets closer tee's it's bs. I've always been pretty neutral on women play in men's sports but I've always wanted to something like a star baseball player play on the softball team just to see the controversy.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:30 AM   #8
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I don't see a problem with it if she's playing the same tees.

However, the problem is the precedent it sets. If next, year, the roles are reversed and there's only one boy that wants to play golf, are they going to let him play on the girls' team? What if he's *really* good? You know parents and opposing coaches are going to complain if he plays from the same tees as the girls. They'd make him move back.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:55 AM   #9
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Well in my hometown the score being used twice was usually in the 100's so its not as cut and dry as a team with a 2.2 handicap and two 7 handicaps, but I have seen it done.
That seems exploitable to me.
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:03 AM   #10
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Well in my hometown the score being used twice was usually in the 100's so its not as cut and dry as a team with a 2.2 handicap and two 7 handicaps, but I have seen it done.
Sounds like you played on a team very similar to mine >.
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:20 AM   #11
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There's a term for situations where we allow ourselves to be confined by an "OR" decision - the fools choice. The better approach is to find ways to give yourself an "AND" decision.

In this case, the decision precludes two girls and one boy from playing golf, so I don't like it. They should have granted a waiver allowing the school to field a 3 person girls team. This would have allowed for the most participation, avoided the gender based controversy and given the school extra time to recruit a 4th player.
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:52 AM   #12
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My example of eliminating the boys & girls designation takes care of that. The coach would field his best team, based on handicap, not by whether you are a boy or a girl. The only change that would need to be made is that the girls would have to reestablish their handicap based on men's slope/rating, which should be easy to do.

I think your suggestion is brilliant. Of course you'll run into the problem of what does the coach do when there's not enough players to fill out a particular set of tees. Does he move the weaker player back? Can he move a few of his weaker "white team" players up?


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Old 09-21-2012, 02:16 PM   #13
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I agree. Regardless of boy/girl designation, a coach should be given the opportunity to field the best team.

Maybe h.s.golf championships need to eliminate the boys & girls designation from the title, and go to something more akin to back/middle/forward tees.

Blue Team (varsity best regardless of boy or girl)
White Team (like the JV regardless of boy or girl)
Red Team (freshmen or those who can't break 100, regardless or boy or girl)

The problem with letting girls on the boys team is that the girls won't let boys on their team. Maybe the above idea eliminates that situation, at least for golf. Don't ask me about baseball/softball or gymnastics.
The difference between a boy playing with the girls is like apples to oranges. The boys shouldn't be allowed to play with the girls because the tee it up closer to the hole and that gives the boy an advantage over the kids his age which are playing further back. With a girl playing with the boys she is technically at a disadvantage because she is playing further back than her female competitors competing on the girls team
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Old 09-21-2012, 03:17 PM   #14
Forex Autopilot

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If she is playing by the same rules as all of her male competitors it shouldn't be an issue. There have been females play in a PGA Tour event so this shouldn't be any different to me IMO
I agree with that point. And arguments can obviously be made for both sides. I've just always personally felt that if the girl can compete with the boys on the boys playing field, then let her have at it. If she can't cut it, she won't make the team. In this case, she has already proven not only can she cut it, she can help carry the team to a title.
I agree. Regardless of boy/girl designation, a coach should be given the opportunity to field the best team.

Maybe h.s.golf championships need to eliminate the boys & girls designation from the title, and go to something more akin to back/middle/forward tees.

Blue Team (varsity best regardless of boy or girl)
White Team (like the JV regardless of boy or girl)
Red Team (freshmen or those who can't break 100, regardless or boy or girl)

The problem with letting girls on the boys team is that the girls won't let boys on their team. Maybe the above idea eliminates that situation, at least for golf. Don't ask me about baseball/softball or gymnastics.
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:55 PM   #15
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Golf is in individual sport which can be set up for team play. Football is a team sport. One cannot play football as an individual. If not enough kids try out for a football team, there is no opportunity for you to play. You must have 11 kids suit up. In this girl's situation, there was not enough girls signed up for "a formal team". But, she could still compete for the girls individual competitions.

I am not for/against either solution. I am merely playing devil's advocate. From what I can tell, the verbiage clearly designates girl's team and boy's team. If there isn't enough players for a girl's team, then, in golf, you would/could still compete for the girl's individual trophies and championships.
I agree with that point. And arguments can obviously be made for both sides. I've just always personally felt that if the girl can compete with the boys on the boys playing field, then let her have at it. If she can't cut it, she won't make the team. In this case, she has already proven not only can she cut it, she can help carry the team to a title. It seems a little vindictive, but if they won't let her play, then they should make that decision retroactive and give up past awards that she contributed to. I'd bet that would make it easy for them to choose which side of the fence they want to sit on.
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:27 PM   #16
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Take the lowest two scores and have the highest score used twice. Ive seen it done.
Do you want a fair competition that has winners and losers? Or, do you want to hand out participation trophies?
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:43 PM   #17
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I don't see a problem with it if she's playing the same tees.

However, the problem is the precedent it sets. If next, year, the roles are reversed and there's only one boy that wants to play golf, are they going to let him play on the girls' team? What if he's *really* good? You know parents and opposing coaches are going to complain if he plays from the same tees as the girls. They'd make him move back.
I am willing to wager there is no school district in country where only one boy plays golf, but there are dozens of female players.
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Old 09-21-2012, 08:09 PM   #18
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We have a young lady at our school who plays on the boys team. She plays the same tee's. (she is very good) I see no problem with it... JMHO

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Old 09-21-2012, 08:33 PM   #19
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Take the lowest two scores and have the highest score used twice. Ive seen it done.
You cannot have a 3 person golf team. Team scoring in golf is based on the lowest 4 scores out of 5 players. At a minimun you must have 4 players on a team.
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Old 09-21-2012, 08:40 PM   #20
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There's a term for situations where we allow ourselves to be confined by an "OR" decision - the fools choice. The better approach is to find ways to give yourself an "AND" decision.

In this case, the decision precludes two girls and one boy from playing golf, so I don't like it. They should have granted a waiver allowing the school to field a 3 person girls team. This would have allowed for the most participation, avoided the gender based controversy and given the school extra time to recruit a 4th player.
You cannot have a 3 person golf team. Team scoring in golf is based on the lowest 4 scores out of 5 players. At a minimun you must have 4 players on a team.
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