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Old 11-21-2011, 03:50 PM   #1
Catieliecutty

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Default Judging people by their secular education
There is a mindset in the Muslim world that education is the key to success. I agree education is a tool but in my own understanding I have come across those who most bitterly oppose Islam are those who have been enlightened by modern education. If one goes to the Muslim world one will see that most of the leaders etc who mess up their country had some foreign education.

Why is it that many Muslims judge people according to their education? Why have we begun to think that success is based on secular education. please note I'm not against secular education but why has it become the yardstick for judging an individual? I find it very confusing to say the least.

I have some friends who are very highly educated individuals but they hate being called 'dr' or even telling people about their profession. One of my friends told me that he notices people treat him with a lot of respect when he mentions his profession otherwise they treat him normally. For this reason he told me he never tells anybody about his profession as he can then tell who is treating him genuinely.

One of my friends who was a dr in Qatar told me that he told everybody at work not to call him 'dr' and then he noticed that he was treated in a more inferior manner.

Anyway my original point is why do we judge a person based on their educational background when we know that the current education system is pretty rubbish anyway.
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Old 11-21-2011, 06:36 PM   #2
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I think the society's obsession with education level (read - certificates) is highly misplaced. It's not the education level that's most important. The focus should be on akhlaq. For a person with a good akhlaq, it's just a matter of time to get the skill needed in his/her respective field. But to those with good certificates but without good akhlaq, it's just a matter of time that they'll destroy themselves.

Those certificates are more or less just to get a good stepping stone in their careers, nothing more than that. I've met many Phd holders who can't even talk about the general trend in their own field.

In your case, you are very lucky to have a few good friends who are highly advanced in their knowledge in their respective field and yet they are so humble. That's a very good environment to be in, .
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Old 11-21-2011, 06:52 PM   #3
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Not that I have anything against academic education so long as there's a deeni objective and one's imaan isn't compromised but that vibe appears to be hubbud-dunyaa. And hubbud-dunyaa is the root of all sin.
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Old 11-21-2011, 08:11 PM   #4
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I feel connected with the sentiments here.
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Old 11-21-2011, 08:12 PM   #5
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How can secular education be for a deeni objective nowadays, dont kid yourself we do not have those purified souls anymore...
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Old 11-21-2011, 08:30 PM   #6
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I'm not kidding . A few days ago a just came from listening to a bayan from one of those pure souls who happens to be an Alim, Shaikh of Tasawwuf and has a degree in business and marketing.

Although rare, but not impossible.
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Old 11-21-2011, 09:46 PM   #7
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yes he is an alim, thats different, he has taken time out for deeni knowledge and is pursuing secular education along with that...but for people to say that they will keep their intention focused on the aakhira pursuing secular education throughout their lives and the filth that comes with it, ALMOST NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE!!!
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Old 11-21-2011, 09:58 PM   #8
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I once came across the father of one my of friends at my local mosque in the States. He knew I dropped out of school to study overseas, so he asked me what I'm doing these days and what my plans are for the future. I informed him that I was studying in Azhar. He asked me what I plan on doing with that education and in a condescending manner, asked if I plan on going around masajid giving lectures. I told him that ideally, I'd like to do graduate studies back in the States and attempt to get into academia, although that is a secondary goal. He said, ok, that makes more sense, because if I was just going to study deen in a traditional institute and come back and be an imam or lecture in masajid, that would "make no sense at all." His statement made me so angry, but I just said salam and left. Can you believe that someone would view studying deen with traditional Muslim scholars as worthless, but studying with Orientalist kuffar as being of value?

Many Pakistani elders from my parents' generation do not value deeni education at all, and they have a passionate hatred for 'ulama, or "mullas" as they call them. Some of these people act like complete shayatin; for years, people would try and convince my parents not to let me do hifz or study overseas, and even now, they look down on me for quitting university and they make up false stories like me leaving to study Islam due to not being smart enough to handle the coursework in university. I would often wonder why they interfere in my life in spite of the fact that I don't even know them well and their having kids on their own, but I realized that they are insecure and afraid that if they allow one person to break out of the norm (i.e. studying engineering or medicine), it will set a dangerous precedent, with perhaps their own children following suit.

Many of our elders migrated from their countries for dunyawi reasons. Looking at the present situation of Muslim countries, I don't necessarily blame them, but some of them became completely lost in chasing the dunya. Some of them had to face poverty and other difficulties in their mother countries, and when they migrated to America, they worked very hard to ensure a comfortable life for them end their children. Hence, when they see second generation Muslims in America wanting to go to the Muslim world to study deen, they view it not only as retrogression, but as a spit in the face of all the hard work they did to get to where they are. As one person told me, "everyone over there is trying to come to America; you are already in America, so why are you trying to go backwards?"
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Old 11-21-2011, 10:15 PM   #9
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I once came across the father of one my of friends at my local mosque in the States. He knew I dropped out of school to study overseas, so he asked me what I'm doing these days and what my plans are for the future. I informed him that I was studying in Azhar. He asked me what I plan on doing with that education and in a condescending manner, asked if I plan on going around masajid giving lectures. I told him that ideally, I'd like to do graduate studies back in the States and attempt to get into academia, although that is a secondary goal. He said, ok, that makes more sense, because if I was just going to study deen in a traditional institute and come back and be an imam or lecture in masajid, that would "make no sense at all." His statement made me so angry, but I just said salam and left. Can you believe that someone would view studying deen with traditional Muslim scholars as worthless, but studying with Orientalist kuffar as being of value?

Many Pakistani elders from my parents' generation do not value deeni education at all, and they have a passionate hatred for 'ulama, or "mullas" as they call them. Some of these people act like complete shayatin; for years, people would try and convince my parents not to let me do hifz or study overseas, and even now, they look down on me for quitting university and they make up false stories like me leaving to study Islam due to not being smart enough to handle the coursework in university. I would often wonder why they interfere in my life in spite of the fact that I don't even know them well and their having kids on their own, but I realized that they are insecure and afraid that if they allow one person to break out of the norm (i.e. studying engineering or medicine), it will set a dangerous precedent, with perhaps their own children following suit.


When I talk to people, those are pretty much the same sentiments I hear. It does make you mad...



It reminds me of an incident I heard in Raiwind Ijtima a while back about Maulana Yusuf Kandhlawi . From what I remember, he was at an Ijtimaa and he was introduced to some people like this, "This is so and so, and he's a doctor. This is so and so, and he's an engineer." So Maulana Sahib got upset and said something to the effect, "In the time of Rasulullah Muslims were given titles because their sacrifices in Deen. The people were referred as, this is a Badri Sahabi, This is a Sahabi who took bay'ah at hudaibiyyah etc, etc.
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Old 11-21-2011, 10:18 PM   #10
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yes he is an alim, thats different, he has taken time out for deeni knowledge and is pursuing secular education along with that...but for people to say that they will keep their intention focused on the aakhira pursuing secular education throughout their lives and the filth that comes with it, ALMOST NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE!!!
No, he pursued the secular one first.

But that example shouldn't fool a person who can't keep his/her deen up in such environments.
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:26 PM   #11
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I once came across the father of one my of friends at my local mosque in the States. He knew I dropped out of school to study overseas, so he asked me what I'm doing these days and what my plans are for the future. I informed him that I was studying in Azhar. He asked me what I plan on doing with that education and in a condescending manner, asked if I plan on going around masajid giving lectures. I told him that ideally, I'd like to do graduate studies back in the States and attempt to get into academia, although that is a secondary goal. He said, ok, that makes more sense, because if I was just going to study deen in a traditional institute and come back and be an imam or lecture in masajid, that would "make no sense at all." His statement made me so angry, but I just said salam and left. Can you believe that someone would view studying deen with traditional Muslim scholars as worthless, but studying with Orientalist kuffar as being of value?

Many Pakistani elders from my parents' generation do not value deeni education at all, and they have a passionate hatred for 'ulama, or "mullas" as they call them. Some of these people act like complete shayatin; for years, people would try and convince my parents not to let me do hifz or study overseas, and even now, they look down on me for quitting university and they make up false stories like me leaving to study Islam due to not being smart enough to handle the coursework in university. I would often wonder why they interfere in my life in spite of the fact that I don't even know them well and their having kids on their own, but I realized that they are insecure and afraid that if they allow one person to break out of the norm (i.e. studying engineering or medicine), it will set a dangerous precedent, with perhaps their own children following suit.

Many of our elders migrated from their countries for dunyawi reasons. Looking at the present situation of Muslim countries, I don't necessarily blame them, but some of them became completely lost in chasing the dunya. Some of them had to face poverty and other difficulties in their mother countries, and when they migrated to America, they worked very hard to ensure a comfortable life for them end their children. Hence, when they see second generation Muslims in America wanting to go to the Muslim world to study deen, they view it not only as retrogression, but as a spit in the face of all the hard work they did to get to where they are. As one person told me, "everyone over there is trying to come to America; you are already in America, so why are you trying to go backwards?"


Ive had similar reactions from people.. Once while in jamaat .. i was supposed to stand at the masjid gate for istiqbal (reception).. a young man dressed in western attire came in.. i greeted him with salaams and inquired about himself.. in a mocking glance looking as if it were a contempt to ask his highness such a foolish question.. said dont u know me.. I replied No.. said.. Im a BCOm (bachelor of Commerce) and train at a particular computer institute.. i said thats very good Masha Allah.. Im an MD in Internal Medicine and Asst.Prof at a University..
seriously within seconds his jaw dropped and with great humilty said.. im very sorry i thought u were a Hafiz saheb..

which means a hafiz al Qur'an who has comitted the Qur'an by heart deserves no respect while a doctor whoz degree carries no merit in the hereafter should be held in high esteem..

on another occasion one of my uncles ( a doctor) introduced me to his cousin.. and the guy asks is he really a doctor.. he looks like a terrorist..
seriouslly.. i could have shredded him to size quite easily.. but left the matter with Allah since it was not me he called a terrorist but my dress and beard.. and why should i worry over this fool.. hez opening his own door towards kufr.. well.. the same evening he sent his aplogies and was into patronising and stuff when he saw me next time..

Keeping such fools aside.. Im saddend by the attitude of some Ulema here from back home.. they came from poor families.. studied deen..faced hardships.. and coming over to gulf.. trimmed their beards.. attend mixed gatherings.. just to be in line with the modern folks.. and when they meet someone like me they feel uncomfortable.. give that disapproving look.. and its here u really feel bad..

May Allah give hidaya to all..

wa assalam..
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:21 AM   #12
cakaeroryrere

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There is a mindset in the Muslim world that education is the key to success. I agree education is a tool but in my own understanding I have come across those who most bitterly oppose Islam are those who have been enlightened by modern education. If one goes to the Muslim world one will see that most of the leaders etc who mess up their country had some foreign education.

Why is it that many Muslims judge people according to their education? Why have we begun to think that success is base

d on secular education. please note I'm not against secular education but why has it become the yardstick for judging an individual? I find it very confusing to say the least.






I have some friends who are very highly educated individuals but they hate being called 'dr' or even telling people about their profession. One of my friends told me that he notices people treat him with a lot of respect when he mentions his profession otherwise they treat him normally. For this reason he told me he never tells anybody about his profession as he
can then tell who is treating him genuinely.

One of my friends who was a dr in Qatar told me that he told everybody at work not to call him 'dr' and then he noticed that he was treated in a more inferior manner.

Anyway my original point is why do we judge a person based on their educational background when we know that the current education system is pretty rubbish anyway.
Brother,let me say there is no division of Din and dunya in Islam.This concept in itself is foreign to our faith.It is obvious that neither every one is supposed to be a Aleme Din,nor every one is supposed to be a doctor or Engineer etc.Allah swt has created people for performing different tasks,those who go for deeni education needs a doctor for their health,and those who specialize in medicine need an Alem to learn din from him.If an Alem is learning Din to earn dunya,he is a materialist;a scientist who learns nuclear science to improve defences of Umma is a mujahid.
So let us broadly classify them into ILMUL ADYAN and ILM UL ABDAN ( in broad sense every Ilm other than deeni ilm,is in one way or the other for physcal needs,Medicine is more specific,but others too may broadly come under this catagory).No Ilm is secular,all May lead to Allah if used properly.The Question should be,why this disparity between the two kind of Uloom ?. The matter is the 'lack of clear concept' about the nature of every Ilm,which is ' to know Allah swt,to learn that we are his Ibad...and to serve Umma in particular and the whole humanity in general'; When these purposes are served then All uloom are good,if not,then even deeni uloom can end up being a fitna.
Please read a small booklet written by syed Suleman Nadvi ra by the name of 'RASOOL E WAHDAT" and also his KHUTBATE MADRAAS.
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:06 AM   #13
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Sidi London,

The Qibla of their hearts has deviated, and instead turned to the Dunya.
The majority of the Sahaba were illiterate, they were simple people, but their Qibla was Allah, and that is what made them so great.
So while education is of worth, we need to ask ourself, what education takes priority?

wa'Llahu a'lam
wassalam
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:42 AM   #14
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Sidi London,

The Qibla of their hearts has deviated, and instead turned to the Dunya.
The majority of the Sahaba were illiterate, they were simple people, but their Qibla was Allah, and that is what made them so great.
So while education is of worth, we need to ask ourself, what education takes priority?

wa'Llahu a'lam
wassalam



Reminds me of this Hadith:

Zaid bin Thabit narrates: I heard Rasulullah saying: He whose objective is the world, Allah scatters his affairs (he faces worries and anxieties in every aspect) and places the fear of poverty before his eyes; and he receives only that which has been preordained for him. And he whose intention (objective) is the Hereafter, Allah makes all his affairs easy, and enriches his heart, and the world comes to him humiliated.

(Ibn Majah)
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:43 AM   #15
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Putting aside the narrow-mindedness that people have about Deeni Knowledge I heard the Sheikh of Deoband say that it is the Fitra of people to have admiration for 3 things:

1) beauty
2) Intelligence
3) Favourtism i.e. ehsan on you

In regards to the second point who gave the example of a Doctor and the intelligence, qualification, expertise, etc a Doctor has. It is again fitra [natural inclination] for one to have admiration when you walk into a surgery and the Diagnosed something and provide a medicine that cured you. Likewise if you are arrested for a crime whether you are guilty or not and the Lawyer is able to follow a process that keeps you out of jail, you alongside with your family will have admiration of that person.

Conclusion: Do not be predujuice against something that is the Fitra of the human condition. Most of the examples provided have there own caveat and are a reflection of peoples attitude in comparing the Deen and Secular education. I know of non-religious people in the sense we understand it that are extreme civil and intelligient and would not make these comparisons and would be thoughtful if whatever choice you made in live even if it was to become an Imaam and live a life percieved by society as meaningless however they would see the meaning and value in that choice and would dwell further into understanding why you made that choice without jumping to conclusion.

Question is whether the problem in becoming educated or becoming educated within an infastructure that is designed to put people in silo's, classes, develop predujuices, etc. many religious and non-religious or even non-muslims have in the past and currently in this period do maintain character that is worthy of marvelling at, granted it is rare but you can not really afford your time or energy with people who lack character are uncivilised, lack intelligence, humility, thoughtfullness, insight, etc although have a claim to be 'educated'. Education comes from the latin root word edu-ca-cus which means 'from within'. Thus an educated man was considered so because literacy taught him to be a better person and not the accumulation of information.

historically when you got a BA [bachelor of Arts] or a MA [master of Arts] you masters the 3 arts i.e. Grammer, rethorics and logic.

Grammer to construct sentences.
Logic to construct the thought process of those sentences
Rhetoric to express the thoughts and sentences in a manner that did not require violence or the need to attack, humiliate, belittle, etc another person. You couteous, factual and pleasant in your ability to convince.
Our scholars of the past were beautiful at this. Abu Hanifa and imaam malik argued all night in this manner and Imaam malik comes out sweating at fajr marvelled at the intelligence of Abu Hanfia.
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:58 AM   #16
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This is one of the major reasons we as a nation are disgraced and humiliated. As Hadhrat 'Umar prophesized so aptly with statement that should be stamped on every modernist's forehead:

"We were of the most disgraced of people, and Allah granted us honor with this Islam. Now, whenever we seek honor in other than that which Allah honored us with, Allah shall disgrace us (once again)."

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Old 11-22-2011, 01:57 PM   #17
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There is a mindset in the Muslim world that education is the key to success. I agree education is a tool but in my own understanding I have come across those who most bitterly oppose Islam are those who have been enlightened by modern education. If one goes to the Muslim world one will see that most of the leaders etc who mess up their country had some foreign education.

Why is it that many Muslims judge people according to their education? Why have we begun to think that success is based on secular education. please note I'm not against secular education but why has it become the yardstick for judging an individual? I find it very confusing to say the least.
To me the terminolgy of "secular education" makes little sense for many reasons. I don't think so that secularism is a Qaim Bil Dhaat thing but just the lack of Islam in someone is populalrly called secualrism , like the absence of light is called darkness though we are not naming anything but the abscence of something.
Secondly , the division between Islamic and 'secular' education occured in two phases.
1.Its an undeniable fact that Muslims inducted the the core concepts of inductive logics in the epestemic streams of the world which was then (9th,10th,11th,12th,13th century AD) taken over by the greeks sophistries , Gnosticism , and futile deductive logics. During this glorious period , Muslims truely ruled the all the realms of knowledge.
However , after the fall of Abbasid Caliph , the Sufis reformulated the greek sophistries , Gnostics myths and other futile doctrines. They started pusihing "Rahbaniyaat" again and the whole of this movment has shapped into the present Islam vs secularism debate.
2. Sayyid Ahmad Khan started a compaign for "secular" education in the subcontinent during the late decades of the 18th century.It was the same period when Charles Darwin was providing fuel to the "movement of enlightment" in the west. Sayyid Ahmad Khan can be seen for the religious scholars of that era as a bridge between the "Happy past which was without a challenge" and "Imbalanced future full of challenges".
To reach the other pole in opposition , the Ulama strong criticized "secular" education and then the ways of Madrassah and school will part forever. This scenerio then devolped into the infamous "Mister vs Mullah Debate". Its still going on and the induction of media into the battle has added new horizons to it.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:51 PM   #18
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Interesting observations
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:52 PM   #19
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May ALLAH reward the tablighi brothers. I have noticed that it is the children of tablighis who are mostly filling up the darulooms these days at least this is the case in the UK.
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:27 PM   #20
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The Muslims definitely do look down upon deeni education, mostly because they measure things by wealth, once an aalim or aalimah completes his/her studies their usual jobs are in masjids as an imam or teaching, they don't make a lot of money so therefore Muslims look down upon the education

And the reason why people assume that someone is studying Islam due to them not being smart enough to get a secular education is because desi have a mindset that if their child does well in school they encourage them and want them to be doctors and engineers. If there child is not so smart in secular studies they stick them in a madrassah, the issue with some of the madrassahs are that they don't seem to be strict enough in their entry and pass marks and people keep progressing to the next year with poor understanding of the subjects studied. I think that they can counter this thinking by raising standards in darul ulooms and not lettings people progress in their studies unless they make a certain grade...it gives the whole deeni education a bad reputation to have people being called maulana and aalimahs who can't string a sentence of Arabic together and when asked a fiqhi question they struggle to answer it clearly

wallahu alam
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