[Slonopotam845]

...

If any theocracy has a right to exist, then all do. But it does look very much as if the Islamic theocracies are being singled out. If they constitute a danger to the civilized world, that's understandable, but it appears as if both Afghanistan and Iraq, if left to their devices would become user friendly theocracies.

Hi andak01,

Please don't use the phrase "if left to their devices" when refering to Islamic theocracies. I'm one of those from the civilized world who associates Islamic theocracies with options as in nuclear devices. But, this is just from personal conditioning, as an Israeli, from such threats from Iraq during Saddam's reign of terror, and periodic pronouncements from Iran, Lebanon, Syria, etc.

I need to clarify a point related to a passage in the Quran that you posted:

3:3
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Do the Muslims accept the "Gospel of Jesus", as do the Christians, as the second coming of King Messiah for the Jews, and as being God in the flesh, from Mary, Mother of Christ?

[9mm_fan]

But even the Torah permits the Ger as well as the Ger Tzaddek.

[NeroASERCH]

We believe that Jesus had only a mother. As the quote above says, it is not befitting of the Majesty of The Creator to be a father. The immaculate conception was immaculate, but not by a father, by the Creator of Adam and the rest of us.

Good question. It's been some centuries since Muslim leaders were worthy of the name. A just leader is a just leader regardless of party or religion, and a tyrant a tyrant. As Muslims we are enjoined to promote Good and prohibit leaders, and that shouldn't end with leaders and governments.

andak01,

Of course, the immaculate conception of Jesus is not in Jewish beliefs or knowledge. However, I dialog with Christian Zionists for whom I have a great deal of respect in terms of their faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

I agree with you that the leader must have the character in sync with God's will. Certainly Moses had that character. He is a model for all Torah leaders. Of course, it can't be guranteed that a Torah leader following in the path of Moses could attain his awesome levels, but nevertheless, Moses truly represented God's will to the Jewish people, and maintained the trust among them.

I suppose that you would say that a Muslim leader should look to Mohammed in the same way. Maybe it might be interesting to compare notes on our leaders against these two character standards of Moses for the Jews, and Muhammed for the Muslims.

What can you say about the Muslim leaders of today in regard to how they are emulating the standard of leadership of Muhammed, and how they are deviating from that standard?

I will add my comments likewise about today's Torah leaders and their emulation and deviation from what I perceive to be the standard of Moses.

[Slonopotam845]

andak01,

That's a definitive answer. And a man with a human father?

No. A man created by God like every other man. Adam had neither a father nor a mother, but was a man. Jesus had only a mother.

Surah mary 19:34
Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

19:35
It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.


It's late in Israel. But, one more question. To your knowledge, how many potential "theocracies" are we talking about? I would be against creating any new ones. The ones we have aren't operating in any kind of a just fashion. Most of them wouldn't be missed.

How many Countries are we talking about with a potential now for Islamic theocracies (you can name them if you want), and how many countries are we talking about with a potential now for Christian theocracies? The Vatican is the only remaining Christian Theocracy that I am aware of. Bhutan has recently announced a Bhuddist theocracy. Iran is Shiite, parts of Nigeria and possibly parts of Senegal are under Sunni law, the Sudan claims to be a sharia state, but I would call it Brotherhood of Islam rather than some less political form. Much of Pakistani legal system is Islamic and Saudi Arabia is Wahabbi Muslim. Hardly the makings of a unified khaliphate.

Afterthoughts: there are some parts of Utah where Mormon extremism is law. While not officially sanctioned, neither federal nor state authorities have really cracked down on poligamy and other practices. Mini theocracies can exist within sovereign nations if they are allowed to. In fact, this may be the direction that things are headed. When I travelled in Senegal, I was told that some areas were ruled by Islamic law. There didn't seem to be any great conflict with the government about that. It should be noted also, that the brand of Islam there is less fiercely political than that practiced in the north of Nigeria.

[Paul Bunyan]

That would depend largely on how you view the scope of government generally. You can still erase the barrier between church and state while preserving the existence of other faiths, yes? Or you could erase the barrier between church and state and say dejure there is no difference, Church IS the State IS the Church, Extra Ecclesia Nulla Sallus and so on. Do you see the state as the enforcement arm of the Church as opposed to the vehicle that merely insures its dominance?