[HedgeYourBets]

You mean party like this? ......

Quranic verses that dictate beheading Kaffirs:

5:33-“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution (by beheading), or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;”

8:12- “ will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.”

47:4- “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), strike off their heads; at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.”

9:123: “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.”

5: 45-- “We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear. Toth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.”

2:193- “Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah”

9:29- "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, (Christian and Jews) who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute (Zizziya tax) by hand, being inferior.”

8:17-It is not ye who Slew them; it is God; when thou threwest a handful of dust, it was not Thy act, but God’s…..” (Allah is a real merciful indeed)

Ouch: that's harsh!

C'mon now... I wanted to hear it from Muslims. But to add to your collection:

5:51 "not to make friendship with Jews and Christians"

2:191 "kill the disbelievers wherever we find them"

9:123 "murder them and treat them harshly"

9:5 "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem"

8:65 "If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them"

Some would say it beats our own beloved Tanakh:

Devarim 20:17-18: Rather, you shall utterly destroy them: The Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivvites, and the Jebusites, as the Lord, your God, has commanded you. So that they should not teach you to act according to all their abominations that they have done for their gods

Devarim 13:6-10: If your brother, the son of your mother, tempts you in secret or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your embrace, or your friend, who is as your own soul saying, "Let us go and worship other gods, which neither you, nor your forefathers have known." Of the gods of the peoples around you, [whether] near to you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth; You shall not desire him, and you shall not hearken to him; neither shall you pity him, have mercy upon him, nor shield him. But you shall surely KILL HIM, your hand shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

The above verse is an especially important directive for our Israeli friends if their neighbors complain when they burn a bull on an altar of sacrifice (accoding to Vayikra 1:9 that creates "a pleasing fragrance to the Lord.")

And then we have one of my most favorite verses, Divrei Hayamim II 15:13: And whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, shall be put to death, from the smallest to the greatest, whether man or woman.

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

My source is the Yusef Ali translation:

http://www.ishwar.com/islam/holy_quran_(yusuf)

Re: 5:33 Someone who continues to murder without repenting, NOT A KAFFIR. This verse NEVER specifies that they must be an unbeliever. I prefer the word unbeliever when I speak English, that is what it means.

As for killing a person, refer to the whole phrase, not the single verse! The word of God hasn't been abrogated. Killing a person who isn't murdering or spreading mischief (I'll try to find more on this).

This verse of itself is not the basis for any Sharia law.

5:32
On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

5:33-“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution (by beheading), or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter 5:34
Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Re: 8:12 This is part of a Surah called the Spoils of War. This from Ibn Kathir's tafsir on the Surah.

Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Al-Anfal are the spoils of war.'' Al-Bukhari also recorded that Sa`id bin Jubayr said, "I said to Ibn `Abbas, `Surat Al-Anfal' He said, `It was revealed concerning (the battle of) Badr.

That is, this verse is what one does in battle to another. Once again, not a general proscription for action against unbelievers, only those who are actively waging war. They didn't have bombs in those days to dismember and disembowel their enemies or burn them to a crisp.

Re: 8:12 - Was it insulting to you to at least quote a whole VERSE??? PLEASE!. BECAUSE THEY CONTEND, not unbelievers minding their own business, ones that war against Muslims.

8:12
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.

8:13
This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.

8:12- We will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off. Re: 47:4 Here again we see that there is a battle, and because of verse 5:32 and Surah 9, we know that that battle was a defensive battle. When unbelievers attack in battle...since they only had swords, not land mines, nukes, daisy cutters, machine guns, weapons that cut a man in half and leave him living on the ground with no limbs, or burn him to a crisp.

47:4- Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), strike off their heads; at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives[/B]”: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Re: 9:123 This is a mistranslation. I don't know of any holy scripture of any religion that proscribes murder and calls it thus. What is your source here?

9:123: Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you. Re: 5:45 Part of a confirmation of the word of God as revealed to Jews and Christians.

5:44
It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

5:45
We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

5:46
And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

5: 45-- “We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear. Toth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” Re: 2:193 Refer to the verse below. One of the many BUTs I mentioned in another thread.

2:192
But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

2:193- “Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah” Re: 9:29 - The entire Surah is historic. It was the Meccans who had already oppressed and tortured, battled with and broken a truce with, that it refers to. The surah refers repeatedly to The Sacred Mosque (i.e. the Kaaba in Mecca).

At any rate, even if you refuse to see it as historic, admit that this is the proscription for Muslims.

If they repent or ask asylum, even in the heat of battle, they will be spared, even if they were the ones that started the battle in the first place.

9:5
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); [b]but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.[/i]

9:6
If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

Re: Verses in Surah 9, At Taubah see above. It's historic.

9:7
How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

9:29- "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, (Christian and Jews) who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute (Zizziya tax) by hand, being inferior.” 8:15
O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them.

8:16
If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!

8:17-It is not ye who Slew them; it is God; when thou threwest a handful of dust, it was not Thy act, but God’s…..” (Allah is a real merciful indeed) If you don't quote out of context and spread sentence fragments like propaganda, He is indeed merciful, the most merciful.

[NeroASERCH]

... there are countless Fatwas that support this more violent interpretation.

Also, the guys going around and slicing people's heads off (as commanded in 5:33) specifically accuse people of being Jewish or demand that they say they are Jewish ala Dan Pearl before they put sword to neck. And even if you think thse guys are 'extreme', unless Islam doesn't do anything about them, they become mainstream.

I'd like to see the more accomodating and pluralistic Fatwas or other Islamic works that support a less violent interpretation that you are trying to put forth.

You'd like to see that? Make sure you get it in Arabic because we aren't gonna get anything similar to what will be provided in English.

As to Daniel Pearl: I still see that video ... GAWD ... reminds me of Grand Mufti/Hitler etc etc etc ... continuations ...

[radikal]

Scattergood, my apologies for having edited your post. Accidental use of my new editing privileges.

[Ifroham4]

Andak,

Thanks for the apolgy about editing my post, I think it is something that you should avoid in the future too.

And now on to the discussion:

Andak01:

Many, not all. Many Muslims today are committing great excesses. That isn't an excuse or a proscription to hate us all. This isn't about 'hating you all'. The point of the disucssion is whether or not Muslims use the above texts to hate Jews. Now if you say 'it says MANY' therefore Muslims don't hate all Jews, that's a point that is debatable especially looking at the OFFICIAL press and Immams from SA, Iran, Egypt, Sudan, etc.

But you don't even address that because you can't. So you deflect and avoid in a very disingenuous way. Why is the above quotation and discussion in a that started with the following quote:

"What are the rules/laws for the "kaffirs?"

In theory, would they be allowed to drink, have sex, party, etc.?"

...have anything to do with how or why people hate all Muslims? I didn't mention it, I hadn't seen it mentioned, YOU brought it up. I think that belies your prejudice and bias, not mine.

Scattergood:I would argue that currently that means anybody who resists or limits Islam and Muslims in ANY way shape or form. That may not be YOUR interpretation Andak01, but that seems to be the interpretation on the ground in the Middle East that is poured out of the government controlled Mosques and Immams.

Andak01:
Let's just say that both interpretations are wide spread. I'd love to see your interpretion being widespread and asked for proof of it. I think you would agree that my view that that quotations are being used violently and for totalitarian outcomes IS widespread since you didn't ask for any documentation.

Scattergood:
3) In 5:34, the message seems to be, that as long as non-believers become Muslim, it's all good.

Andak01:
That is one way, but by no means the only. Simply asking asylum would do. And that is after having waged war. Ordinarily, the verse "There is no compulsion in religion." is the watch word. Great, good to hear that by asking for asylum I can keep my head. So if Dan Pearl knew the words "I seek asylum" he would have been spared? I think that the thugs who killed him wouldn't have been swayed by a few words such as these. It might be a good 'theory' but it isn't practiced and that's the point.


ScatterGood:
So basically, the Jews were blessed, fell off the wagon and are fair game to be slaughtered, unless they becom Muslim.

Andak01:
Falling off the wagon in this case involved changing sides immediately prior to battle and making secret pacts with the enemies of the Muslims. I don't look upon those people as THE Jews, merely the Jews of Medina in that time. Again, YOUR interpreation is that the reference is ONLY to the Jews of Medina and battle there 1300 years ago. I would posit that teaching of Muslim states today generalize this and think ALL Jews are following the 'wrong path' and should be slaughtered unless they become Muslim. I'd be happy to provide Osama Bin Laudin's Fatwa's and Letters that specify this point to the West. And he is one of the most admired men in Muslim society today.

Scattergood:
Again, your interpretation may be different, but there are countless Fatwas that support this more violent interpretation. Also, the guys going around and slicing people's heads off (as commanded in 5:33) specifically accuse people of being Jewish or demand that they say they are Jewish ala Dan Pearl before they put sword to neck. And even if you think thse guys are 'extreme', unless Islam doesn't do anything about them, they become mainstream.

Andak01:
OK, enough. Do you suggest that in a country where people are being told to lay down their arms, they be encouraged to war against each other. This heroic Iraqi you imagine- just how long would he survive being shot at by insurgents AND Americans AND American backed Iraqi security forces. Isn't it enough for you that brave Iraqis volunteer to help American and to help their country out of a jam? What does my comment have to do with Iraq at all? I was asking about the liturgical underpinnings of Muslim theology and you bring up Iraq. It has nothing to do with nothing. And your points are completely illogical:

1) If people are being told to lay down their arms, they aren't being encouraged to war against each other.

2) I don't imagine any heroic Iraqui, never mentioned it in any way shape or form.

3) I would argue it is the incorrect and warped view of Islam that LEADS or ALLOWS 'insurgents' to shoot at their own people.

4) It is great that Iraqi's help build Iraq. But I never mentioned it and it wasn't part of the disucssion. I'd be happy if Iraqi's did more to build Iraq instead of take up arms and blow up oil pipe which brings in money to help build up Iraq.

Scattergood:
I'd like to see the more accomodating and pluralistic Fatwas or other Islamic works that support a less violent interpretation that you are trying to put forth.

Andak01:
I doubt you would like to see any Fatwas at all, so please be honest about that. I asked for them, and as moderator you should have the wealth of knowledge and access to the texts to find them. But I don't think you CAN find them. I don't think they exist en masse. They certainly don't exist in a modern form, say since 1800 and that's the point.

I'd really LOVE to see them, I'd LOVE to have Islam practiced as a moderate, pluralistic, open, and non-judgemental religion. But my point is that at its core it isn't. It is expansionistic, judgemental, and as it is practiced today where it is the majority or hold power, it is totalitarian. And this practice, in my opinion, is due to the key liturgical texts that are being used to guide its adherents.

I have asked you to provide support for a different interpretation and instead you insult me. Not a good start as a 'moderator' for a forum.