[brraverishhh]

Yes that is correct of course. And all they would need is a curtain between them. It would seem, yes?

But on the other hand I do see the slippery slope argument. Who's next? How far do you bend the rules? I am only interested in enlarging or maintaining Judaism. I see pretty regularly Jewish congregations making up stuff on the fly, making up new rituals, rules, exclusions and generally becoming wrapped up in calling themselves self appointed experts. Where does it end? When we're all Unitarians? I don't think that the Orthodox have a fundamentally wrong approach.

[radikal]

Judaism updates itself w/o forcing Orthodox to change. Why would you want to erase the differences among Orthodox, Conservative, Refrom, Reconstructionist and so on?

There are lots of things that are not Halacha which are left up to Rabbis, matrilineal descent for example..... As I said there are already mechanisms to do that don't require changes to Orthodox. Why would you want to change Orthodox?

(If the Temple were still in place there would probably be no Talmud)

[HedgeYourBets]

Are they wrong? No one is saying Masorti or Reform is invalid - they're saying that if the Kotel is an Orthodox shul then those rules apply.

Does this enlarge or maintain Judaism?

[Slonopotam845]

Ok that's reasonable but not integral to liturgy is it? Particular directions or 'tolerances' about feminism and gay rights are not actually ensconced in anything uniqe about Orthodox or Masorti vs. anything elser. They are a reflection of the people who participate in them. For example Agunoth is a problem in the Orthodox community specifically because a Get is vital if the woman wishes to remain part of the community. OTOH gay rights tends not to be included in the issues that are of importance to people who insist on being Orthodox. I'm sure there is a discussion about this in O.U. but it's fairly low key.

I wonder if you are familiar with Rebbetzin Rachel Jungreis and the Shineni movement? It is an Orthodox spin on feminism.



Hmmm ....wanting to change Juidaism , how Jewish of you. In my heart I know that the long run survival of Judaism is dependent on Orthodox (of all kinds from O.U. to Lubavitch to Satmar and beyond) but it's tempting to wish there was a way to reconcile elements of others as well. I know at Edah there is a body of study that talks about pluralism within the context of putting fences around the Torah but I don't think this has progressed much in several years. I would like to see this amplified as a working discussion in Israel. Unfortunately their electoral politics tends to amplify the power of extremists so there is little reason for them to become less extreme.

[PhillipHer]

So we're having a 'discussion' at home about a women's group that wants to be allowed to use the Kotel or part of it for their own service.

I'm sort of split 50-50 myself while my S.O. is very opposed.

Here are reasons for:

why not
the Orthodox don't rule everything
isn't pluralism part of the deal


Here are the reasons against:

slippery slope, who's next
can't make up rules on the fly
does not increase or maintain Judaism



Your thoughts?


Also on related front, should women be allowed to us tzitzit and tefillin? Are there any Conservative out there who have experienced the change from quasi-Orthodox w/ no women on the Bima, etc. to the Egalitarian service commonly used today? Was it a shock?

[Slonopotam845]

Yes ergo the story "Yentl", yes? This seems to be the main development of Conservative in the last 30 years, the Egalitarian orientation to it. Today women have the same obligations as men unlike a generation ago when a woman in Conservative still would not touch the Torah. This is what I like to see. But the overarching problem is that Conservative itself is not growing unlike both Reform and Orthodox so it seems that it's own middle of the road approach is missing the mark.

(BTW this is same conversation that some Conservative Southern Baptists have - I wonder if they can offer anything to this)

[S.T.D.]

Originally posted by JustPat
Were the Temple still in place there would be no discussion for the structure and practice would answer the question. But, how are the women provided for under current conditions? How can they fulfill the desire of their heart if they are forbidden?

To me, it is not about updating Judaism or adjusting rules. It is more about giving those who seek to exercise their pursuit of G_d the freedom and ability to do so. How can a way be made without violating the Halacha is a problem left to the Rabbis and students of the Law. Great Comment! Thanks, JustPat.