[MilenaJaf]

Hello everyone,
Thanks for all the replies to my first thread. Now that it is perfectly clear to me why many would want to own a pitbull there are some questions that I want to ask. I repeated the name of the thread to get all those that posted in the original thread to reply to this one.

Pitbulls make wonderful pets, we have agreed on that. Yet, owning one comes with greater responsibility than owning a lab. A poorly raised dog in specific situations will attack humans (heck, any dog could attack if the circumstances call for it). This is not a matter of opinion. It happens. It doesn't matter the breed, if it is an unidentifiable mix, if the dog was selectively bred to be non-human aggressive, if the dog never showed any sign of aggression, etc. It is also not about of viciousness. When pitbulls (umbrella term for any purebred or mix that shows a fighting dog attack pattern) attack, the injuries are more lethal/nastier than with any other breed. This, again, is also not a matter of opinion. The selectively bred traits of jaw strength (bigger heads) and tenacity to never let go make injuries of bully breed bites distinctively different from bites of other breeds.

I do not wish to debate these statements, please refrain from repeating what I already read in the stickies about pitbull myths and such. The place for that debate is anti-bsl, don't make me elaborate on why some of those claims are fallacious.

I know all of you are perfectly aware that it is not the breed to blame for human attacks, it is idiot owners. Browsing through this forum I found a massive amount of posts praising 'gameness', how pitbulls love to fight, how DA is the glorious fate of the breed, how the 'true' breed requires fighting and culling, how you can't breed out aggression without losing the pitbull essence, there are even posts by dumb and dumber that imply they match dogs. A quick search through first pages on google on pitbull breeders confirms that this is not an isolated phenomenon. They advertise head size, gameness, conformation, line breeding, muscle, etc. Only 2 sites emphasized pet temperament over all other traits. All these are clear indicators that idiot owners and breeders are not a minority in the pitbull community. Why are they idiots? Because they encourage traits that make pitbull attacks (when they happen) substantially more life or limb threatening than any other breed.

Finally, the questions.

How do you deal with these people?
Don't you think that campaigning for how wonderful these pets are, in the way it is usually done, might have 2 consequences:
1. Free the breed from stereotypes and discrimination. (this is great) but also,
2. Polarize the public opinion that realizes there is a social concern regarding pitbulls and that notices that many owners simply should not own them? (by ignoring the social concern and laughing off that many owners do buy into the 'badass' status that their pitbull gives them)
I would recommend to make necessary distinctions and to redirect the public outcry from the breed to those clearly identifiable individuals.

No one in the last thread mentioned DA as a legit reason to own one.
Is there anything being done to breed DA out of pitbulls? I mean, they got there by selective breeding, there is no reason why they have to be condemned to it.

[Annewsded]

Im going to leave this one a lone and up to the people who have the gift of choosing the right words to say. but i will say i am glad you have learned a lot more than you did on your first posy and thank you for not being an ass in the way you approached us and im sure im not the only one that thinks this way.

[crazuMovies]

Mmmm. Where to begin, where to begin....

Hello everyone,
When pitbulls (umbrella term for any purebred or mix that shows a fighting dog attack pattern) attack, the injuries are more lethal/nastier than with any other breed. This, again, is also not a matter of opinion.

Actually, yes it is. You cannot successfully tell what breed or type of dog attacked a person unless you took a copy of the dog's teeth to match them. At best, you can see the length of the dog's muzzle.
The selectively bred traits of jaw strength (bigger heads)
and tenacity to never let go make injuries of bully breed bites distinctively different from bites of other breeds. How is a dog that holds on causing more damage than a dog that instead bites repeatedly?
I do not wish to debate these statements, please refrain from repeating what I already read in the stickies about pitbull myths and such. The place for that debate is anti-bsl, don't make me elaborate on why some of those claims are fallacious. Sorry dude, if you don't want them discussed you don't bring them up or you at least get your facts right. That's not how it works
I know all of you are perfectly aware that it is not the breed to blame for human attacks, it is idiot owners. Browsing through this forum I found a massive amount of posts praising 'gameness', how pitbulls love to fight, how DA is the glorious fate of the breed, how the 'true' breed requires fighting and culling, how you can't breed out aggression without losing the pitbull essence, there are even posts by dumb and dumber that imply they match dogs. A quick search through first pages on google on pitbull breeders confirms that this is not an isolated phenomenon. Lol wut?
They advertise head size Show me a person who breeds true APBT that advertises head size gameness This is bad because......?
conformation, line breeding, muscle, etc. This is bad because....?
Only 2 sites emphasized pet temperament over all other traits. This is good because....?

All these are clear indicators that idiot owners and breeders are not a minority in the pitbull community. Why are they idiots? Because they encourage traits that make pitbull attacks (when they happen) substantially more life or limb threatening than any other breed. My goodness you are extremely misinformed. You really need to do some more reading. A lot of a lot more

How do you deal with these people?
Don't you think that campaigning for how wonderful these pets are, in the way it is usually done, might have 2 consequences:
1. Free the breed from stereotypes and discrimination. (this is great) but also,
2. Polarize the public opinion that realizes there is a social concern regarding pitbulls and that notices that many owners simply should not own them? (by ignoring the social concern and laughing off that many owners do buy into the 'badass' status that their pitbull gives them) No, because furmommies are also a reason why these dogs are on shit lane
I would recommend to make necessary distinctions and to redirect the public outcry from the breed to those clearly identifiable individuals. It doesn't work that way
No one in the last thread mentioned DA as a legit reason to own one.
Is there anything being done to breed DA out of pitbulls? I mean, they got there by selective breeding, there is no reason why they have to be condemned to it. Some hoghunters work to breed it out, but they are always willing to accept that it's not always going to come out that way. I personally couldn't give less of a damn. It's not an issue to me

[TNgqZhLR]

I'll just leave this here, take from it what you will.
"Terriers typically have little tolerance for other animals, including other dogs. Their ancestors were bred to hunt and kill vermin. Many continue to project the attitude that they're always eager for a spirited argument."AKC Breeds by Group - Terrier Group

These dogs are terriers. Not only terriers, but terriers whose 'vermin' were other dogs. That's the way it is. I wouldn't take a jack russell, a bull terrier, or a westie to an off leash dog park just like a wouldn't take an american pit bull terrier or an american staffordshire terrier or a staffordshire bull terrier.

Don't like DA? Don't get a terrier, and especially not a pit bull.

[huylibizonoff]

Mmmm.
How is a dog that holds on causing more damage than a dog that instead bites repeatedly?
Sorry dude, if you don't want them discussed you don't bring them up or you at least get your facts right. That's not how it works

One can bring up things that are not to be discussed purely to give the other members on the discussion a viewpoint on their position. I'm sure if one could prove something to be a fallacy they'd gladly acknowledge such. And I do not think we can argue that APBTs are capable of doing a lot of damage if they wish. They are after all, canine gladiators, in a sense.

Show me a person who breeds true APBT that advertises head size This is bad because......? You might be able to differentiate, but the general public isn't. The general public will see that as a Pit Bull, but also, you can have a APBT that is a poor example of the breed. Not all APBTs are going to be true to what the breed should look like and act.


I could me misinterpreting your intentions though.

[U2DnBGFE]

Is there anything being done to breed DA out of pitbulls?

I'm sorry, do you even know what DA stands for? It stand for DOG AGGRESSION.

Breeding out DA is not going to suddenly stabilize dogs who are mentally off for the breed and would go for a person.

THAT is called HA - HUMAN AGGRESSION. And none of us accept that as part of the breed.

[Desflahd]

I speak SOLEY for myself here, not for anyone else on the forum or owning a pit.

Linebreeding- It's used by just about anybody that wants to improve their line of dogs. It's not unique to the bulldog world at all. Herding and hunting dogs, horses, cattle, all are improved by knowledgeable people using linebreeding techniques. It is used to attempt to set in desirable traits and isolate bad ones. Traits like the CONFORMATION, or TEMPERMENT you want.

Culling- once again not unique to the bulldog world. If a dog is going to stay on my yard it has to hunt and hunt the way I like it to or it gets culled from my pack.

Gameness- In this day and age, it's not worth talking about because nobody can legally prove it anyway in this country, at least in the old sense of the word. Just know that gameness and dog or prey agression are not the same thing.


What you refer to as traits that make an attack worse is exactly why they are at least in my case such valuable working animals. I need that tenacity and that holding power to keep me and mine safe while the dog does his job and I do mine. Can you imagine being just about to lay hands on a two hundred pound boar and having the dog holding him decide to let go? Not cool.

Idiots that think having a pit makes them a "badass"- What can I say, they're everywhere. Ya got me on that one. All I can say is that those are the exact people that shouldn't own a pit bull. A man's ego is a hell of a burden for a dog to carry.

Hog hunters and dog agression- Yes, when we breed we breed away from it. When it does show up anybody I know that hunts will cull for it. I don't know a single hog hunter that will allow dog aggression on his yard. It is not tolerated from any breed bulldog or not. There's just too much at stake with regards to our working dogs.

---------- Post added at 09:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 PM ----------

Breeding out DA is not going to suddenly stabilize dogs who are mentally off for the breed and would go for a person.

THAT is called HA - HUMAN AGGRESSION. And none of us accept that as part of the breed.

Completely agree.

[crazuMovies]

One can bring up things that are not to be discussed purely to give the other members on the discussion a viewpoint on their position. I'm sure if one could prove something to be a fallacy they'd gladly acknowledge such.

That's my main issue. There's no point in ever bringing up information to further your point if the information is information you don't want to be discussed or is fallacious or incorrect in it's nature. That's not how discussion works
And I do not think we can argue that APBTs are capable of doing a lot of damage if they wish. They are after all, canine gladiators, in a sense. I wasn't, just pointing out the errors in the logic

You might be able to differentiate, but the general public isn't. The general public will see that as a Pit Bull, but also, you can have a APBT that is a poor example of the breed. Not all APBTs are going to be true to what the breed should look like and act.


I could me misinterpreting your intentions though. Lol, a bit.

My main issue lies in the way this was worded. First off, sites advertising any breed of dog they are championing as "makes a good pet" usually brings up a red flag or two, because it's rare that I see these same sites also making sure that the owners know what it is that they are getting into when they obtain a pit bull or "pit bull type" dog. What makes and doesn't make a good pet is purely in the eye of the beholder and as such, a person needs to be given all the information and research things for themselves. An APBT makes a fine pet to me, but a strong high-energy breed with potential DA and small animal issues may not be another person's cup of tea. A good pet will always be what you make of it

[TNgqZhLR]

Thought I should also say, there are idiots owning every breed out there. The media is currently focusing on the idiot pit bull owners that don't a) understand what their dog is, b) contain their dog, and/or c) recognize an unstable dog (regarding human aggression). This breed can't stand to be owned by any more idiots. But I think you'll find, if you look past the media hype, there are idiots everywhere you turn in every breed of dog.

[GillTeepbew]

Pitbulls make wonderful pets, we have agreed on that. Yet, owning one comes with greater responsibility than owning a lab.

Regardless of breed, a responsible owner will maintain control of their pets at ALL times. It is not harder to be a responsible owner and maintain control of a pit bull than a lab. I've owned both.

A poorly raised dog in specific situations will attack humans (heck, any dog could attack if the circumstances call for it). This is not a matter of opinion. It happens. It doesn't matter the breed, if it is an unidentifiable mix, if the dog was selectively bred to be non-human aggressive, if the dog never showed any sign of aggression, etc. It is also not about of viciousness. Poorly raised really has nothing to do with it. Many dogs have been rescued from poor conditions and with proper care, proven to be exceptional pets. A genetically faulty dog or a dog that isn't "wired right" COULD be human aggressive. Regardless of breed, some people encourage human aggression and perhaps even breed for it.

When pitbulls (umbrella term for any purebred or mix that shows a fighting dog attack pattern) attack, the injuries are more lethal/nastier than with any other breed. This, again, is also not a matter of opinion. The selectively bred traits of jaw strength (bigger heads) and tenacity to never let go make injuries of bully breed bites distinctively different from bites of other breeds. Studies, not opinion have shown there are several breeds that typically have stronger jaws than a pit bull. I believe a previous poster cited one such study.

I do not wish to debate these statements, please refrain from repeating what I already read in the stickies about pitbull myths and such. The place for that debate is anti-bsl, don't make me elaborate on why some of those claims are fallacious. The way the internet works, is if you post something, there will be comments and opinions shared. You obviously do not have all the facts or you wouldn't be posting here. And, some of the "facts" you do have are no more than opinion dressed up as fact. You currently have 15 posts on this forum. There are a few people here with years of experience and no reason to lie about their own experience with pit bulls. I hope others will comment as well.

I know all of you are perfectly aware that it is not the breed to blame for human attacks, it is idiot owners. Regardless of breed, irresponsible owners are part of an attack equation and another part is a dog with faulty genetics.

Browsing through this forum I found a massive amount of posts praising 'gameness', how pitbulls love to fight, how DA is the glorious fate of the breed, how the 'true' breed requires fighting and culling, how you can't breed out aggression without losing the pitbull essence, there are even posts by dumb and dumber that imply they match dogs. You can't deny history.

A quick search through first pages on google on pitbull breeders confirms that this is not an isolated phenomenon. They advertise head size, gameness, conformation, line breeding, muscle, etc. Only 2 sites emphasized pet temperament over all other traits. All these are clear indicators that idiot owners and breeders are not a minority in the pitbull community. Why are they idiots? Because they encourage traits that make pitbull attacks (when they happen) substantially more life or limb threatening than any other breed. Sounds like you are jumping to conclusions based on your own opinion or extrapolating what you choose to read and morphing it into some kind of belief.

Finally, the questions.

How do you deal with these people? If you mean those who breed for size and/or color, I don't visit their website, own one of their dogs or support their endeavor in any way.

Don't you think that campaigning for how wonderful these pets are, in the way it is usually done, might have 2 consequences:
1. Free the breed from stereotypes and discrimination. (this is great) but also,
2. Polarize the public opinion that realizes there is a social concern regarding pitbulls and that notices that many owners simply should not own them? (by ignoring the social concern and laughing off that many owners do buy into the 'badass' status that their pitbull gives them)
I would recommend to make necessary distinctions and to redirect the public outcry from the breed to those clearly identifiable individuals. Not sure I even see a question here. It sounds as though you offer and opinion and advice on how best to get the general public to accept pit bulls ("pit bull" is two words by the way). All I can tell you is that I walk that dog in my avatar, Mason, 2-3 times a day for at least an hour each walk, all over town and everyone we come in contact with clearly sees how human friendly Mason is. Everyone wants to pet him and he loves it. A country circuit judge lives in the house directly behind my home and doesn't have a problem with pit bulls. Mason and I are doing what we can and the proof is in seeing and believing.

No one in the last thread mentioned DA as a legit reason to own one.
Is there anything being done to breed DA out of pitbulls? I mean, they got there by selective breeding, there is no reason why they have to be condemned to it. Gawd I hope not. If you can't accept the breed for what it is and how it got to be here and love it as it is while learning to be a responsible pet owner and breed ambassador ... then this may not be the breed for you. Your choice of the phrase, "condemned to it" speaks volumes about your perception and understanding of pit bulls, as well as your true attitude toward them.

... and to emphasize as others have, Dog Aggression (DA) and Human Aggression (HA) are two completely mutually exclusive types of aggression. Not even close to being the same.

[huylibizonoff]

That's my main issue. There's no point in ever bringing up information to further your point if the information is information you don't want to be discussed or is fallacious or incorrect in it's nature. That's not how discussion works
I wasn't, just pointing out the errors in the logic

Thank you for clarifying.

[MilenaJaf]

First, I forgot to ask for a civilized discussion, I'll do it now. Please present arguments if there is some point that you want to challenge. If you are going to accuse me of ignorance, you can at least bring up enough proof to back up your claim. This is also going to be hard to get, but please refrain yourself from nitpicking, hair splitting, and poor reasoning. I came here for a discussion with adults, I'm not interested in your political pundit skills.

Mmmm. Where to begin, where to begin....
Actually, yes it is. You cannot successfully tell what breed or type of dog attacked a person unless you took a copy of the dog's teeth to match them. At best, you can see the length of the dog's muzzle.

You completely missed the point of the post and you are wrong. You can successfully tell the type of dog that caused the injury because of the type of injury. For starters, the length of the muzzle. If you see long distance between punctures you can rule out a pitbull. If you see tearing from a single bite you can tell it was a bully type.

I'll just leave this here, take from it what you will.
"Terriers typically have little tolerance for other animals, including other dogs. Their ancestors were bred to hunt and kill vermin. Many continue to project the attitude that they're always eager for a spirited argument."AKC Breeds by Group - Terrier Group

These dogs are terriers. Not only terriers, but terriers whose 'vermin' were other dogs. That's the way it is. I wouldn't take a jack russell, a bull terrier, or a westie to an off leash dog park just like a wouldn't take an american pit bull terrier or an american staffordshire terrier or a staffordshire bull terrier.

Don't like DA? Don't get a terrier, and especially not a pit bull.

And it can be other way. I never even remotely implied that pitbulls were the only DA breed. I pointed out the consequences of DA + bully traits if a dog were to attack.

---------- Post added at 10:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 PM ----------

One can bring up things that are not to be discussed purely to give the other members on the discussion a viewpoint on their position. I'm sure if one could prove something to be a fallacy they'd gladly acknowledge such.

Yes Celestial, thanks for clarifying

[GillTeepbew]

And it can be other way. I never even remotely implied that pitbulls were the only DA breed. I pointed out the consequences of DA + bully traits if a dog were to attack.

It's as though you are totally ignoring the fact that several people have pointed out to you that Dog Aggression (DA) and Human Aggression (HA) have absolutely nothing to do with each other except that they are two distinct types of aggression. Most of the dogs that members of this forum own, are DA or selectively DA and NOT Human Agressive AT ALL. Also and again, there are other breeds with more powerful jaws than a pit bull. If I need to post links to sites explaining the different types of aggression and links to sites conducting bite pressure tests, I can ... or you can google it.

[Desflahd]

[MilenaJaf]

I'm sorry, do you even know what DA stands for? It stand for DOG AGGRESSION.

Breeding out DA is not going to suddenly stabilize dogs who are mentally off for the breed and would go for a person.

THAT is called HA - HUMAN AGGRESSION. And none of us accept that as part of the breed.

I'm aware of that distinction. Pitbulls are not mentally off for the breed, shame on you, you should know that. When it comes to a situation where any dog would attack, a dog without DA will arguably do less damage. Dogs in attacking mode don't make human-prey distinctions. A dog that is encouraged to DA, to bite and hold will instinctively react in the way he is encouraged to behave. Dogs that are not encouraged to be aggressive may not have this instinctual first response to stressful or unfamiliar situations that might trigger an attack in any dog. This does not mean that the breed is human aggressive.

[TNgqZhLR]

And it can be other way. I never even remotely implied that pitbulls were the only DA breed. I pointed out the consequences of DA + bully traits if a dog were to attack.

What are these mysterious bully traits you speak of? And what do they have to do with attacks? I don't see you bringing up BULL mastiffs, BULL terriers, staffordshire BULL terriers, english BULLdogs, american BULLdogs. Clearly you don't think the aforementioned dogs are as dangerous as pit bulls, even though their propensity towards dog aggression can be just as high as a terrier's.

I think you don't know what you're talking about and, thus, talking in circles to make it seem like you do.

[Juersdodfs]

What exactly is your question and what are you trying to accomplish?

[veizKinquiz]

I don't understand your question, your point, or your agenda.

You ask why these dogs haven't been bred to be not aggressive to humans. Everyone is telling you that they have.

They may be dog aggressive. It's completely different from human aggression, so breeding out dog aggression isn't really going to change the lack of human aggression.

And they absolutely can tell the difference between prey and a human. if they didn't, I would lose a limb every time Amy saw a schnauzer or squirrel.

[Desflahd]

Teal meant that a Human Agressive pitbull is mentally off for the breed. A bulldog should NEVER be human agressive, ever. It is outside any breed standard and outside the intentions for the breed. A pitbull that is human agressive is wired wron, mentally ill you could say and should be culled and the sooner the better.

The degree of dog agression in a dog has nothing to do with the ferocity on an attack on a human. It is two different worlds.

Most people know this already, but I'm not sure you do. I hunt feral hogs with my dogs all the time. The pit bulls I own are used to catch and control these hogs. I get them close and turn them loose to catch, then follow behind to deal with the hog. It could be said that they are in "attack" mode when they engage the hog, yet I have never been bitten when I come in to leg a hog. If dogs in "attack mode" failed to make a distinction between humans and prey I'd have been dead a long time ago. What you describe is often called "redirecting" and can happen when someone tries to break up a fight. Maybe others have different experiences but I have found bull breeds less likely to redirect then others.

I don't know of anybody here that encourages dog aggression. Most simply choose to manage it and change their lifestyle accordingly. They simply accept their dog for what it is and make any choices regarding their dog with those tendancies in mind.

If a stressful situation encourages a dog to attack, the first thing you need to do is to look at what lead up to that situation. That is usually a fear aggression issue, not dog aggression and once again, as a blanket sort of statement bulldogs are more stable than most.

No, none of this means that the breed is human agressive. Bulldogs are not typically human aggressive.

[crazuMovies]

First, I forgot to ask for a civilized discussion, I'll do it now. Please present arguments if there is some point that you want to challenge. If you are going to accuse me of ignorance, you can at least bring up enough proof to back up your claim.

Will happily do

This is also going to be hard to get, but please refrain yourself from nitpicking, hair splitting, and poor reasoning. I came here for a discussion with adults, I'm not interested in your political pundit skills. I ask that you do the same, and don't bring any information to the table that you aren't willing to discuss. That's how discussions are supposed to work.


You completely missed the point of the post and you are wrong. You can successfully tell the type of dog that caused the injury because of the type of injury. For starters, the length of the muzzle. I mentioned being able to determine muzzle length
If you see long distance between punctures you can rule out a pitbull. If you see tearing from a single bite you can tell it was a bully type. Shiba Inu bite:
Springer spaniel bite:

GSD bite:

I am going to leave this one to your common sense, would you rather be bitten 3 times by a GSD or once by a pitbull? I'd rather everyone exercise common sense and control over their animals and I not be bitten at all. I was mauled as teen by a Chow Chow. It was not pleasant and had my own dog not saved my life i probably would have died. You think at my funeral my parents would have went "Oh well, at least it wasn't a pit bull"?


I already said, google pitbull breeders, first page of results. I also already said, because it encourages traits that make this dog undesirable. What is and isn't a desired trait is int he eye of the beholder, and that is an opinion. An opinion is not a fact
Pet temperament is what makes the pitbull an excellent dog. Go back and read the thread why pitbulls? if you have any doubt about it. There is no such thing as "pet temperament", just temperaments that are acceptable within the scope of the breed that you happen to be discussing and once again, what works out as a good pet for one person is not going to be a good pet for someone else
The rest of your post lacks backing up. I will reply to it as soon as you prove your claims like I prove mine. Already done, though as you were the original one to present information onus is already yours to prove. Onus is now on you
And it can be other way. I never even remotely implied that pitbulls were the only DA breed. I pointed out the consequences of DA + bully traits if a dog were to attack. Dog aggression is dog aggression, human aggression is human aggression. The two have nothing to do with each other