[sabbixsweraco]

First off, prong collars, e-collars, dominant dog collars any kind of correction collar causes pain or for a dog to be uncomfortable. That's what makes the tools effective. If you can't admit that a prong collar is uncomfortable for your dog you shouldn't be using it. I've never put a prong on one of my dogs but I do use something similar to a dominant dog collar and I have used an e-collar. It's uncomfortable and even sometimes painful, that's why these tools work so well.

Corrections/aversives of any kind (even just verbal) are effective because the dog works to AVOID that correction. Hades will work to avoid me giving a no reward marker, your dog will walk nicely on the leash to avoid the uncomfortable feeling in their neck that the prong collar provides. If your dog loved an aversive the behaviour you use it for would never disappear (ie, the dog will always pull because it loves the feeling of the prong pinching it's neck)

There's so many little tid bits that are worth their weight in gold, I had a PR trainer tell me one time when I was "crossing over";

Just because you can, (punish) doesn't mean you should.

Put that way it started to make sense because I've worked with horses almost my whole life. There are plenty of times where the level of punishing a horse to the length that some people punish dogs is just impossible, or downright dangerous and often extremely counter productive. So you have to come up with other, more gentle ways of training. I didn't always make that connection between dogs and horses, but the comment above really made me think about it and ultimately start changing the way I worked with my dogs, my expectations (which skyrocketed once I got the hang of it all) and my overall mentality when approaching training.

ETA - There are plenty of methods out there that will WORK for dogs, but it doesn't mean that it's what's best for a dog. I'm sure rubbing your dog's face in its own excrement might deter it from pooping in the house, but is it really the best way?

[gamblingstats]

It's a quick little snap of my wrist, not hard at all. Just a quick little tug. It's just enough to make her divert her attention from whatever she was doing that she shouldn't have been doing.

---------- Post added at 05:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 PM ----------

First off, prong collars, e-collars, dominant dog collars any kind of correction collar causes pain or for a dog to be uncomfortable. That's what makes the tools effective. If you can't admit that a prong collar is uncomfortable for your dog you shouldn't be using it. I've never put a prong on one of my dogs but I do use something similar to a dominant dog collar and I have used an e-collar. It's uncomfortable and even sometimes painful, that's why these tools work so well.

of course it's uncomfortable. Where did I say it wasn't?!

[sabbixsweraco]

well - this is what her trainer recommended and right now it's working so I'm not inclined to change it yet. If it's not working, I'll reevaluate. The trainer said it's not to cause pain, but to quickly redirect her attention to focus on me. She is listening without the tug of the leash most of the time, so I'll be moving into taking off the pinch collar soon. Next week I'll take her to a friend's big backyard with lots of distractions and see how she does without the leash or collar.

I'm not pulling this stuff out my ass. This is what her trainer recommended and I'm not sure why it's such a bad idea.

You're trainer isn't completely wrong, tugging on the prong will redirect her attention, but she redirects her attention because the tug causes her to be uncomfortable.

I don't think your pulling anything out of your ass. I think this is a very popular way of working on loose lead walking and reinforcing commands, I won't even say that it's completely wrong. I just get cringey whenever I hear this method in combination with the attitude that;

My dog does it because I said so, NOT because of food.

When in reality, your dog does it because he's learned not listening to you is painful, instead of listening to you results in good things happening.

I use correction methods myself so I'm not trying to bang on them, I just think if you are going to use a correction based method, as a dog owner and intelligent human, you have to admit to yourself that your dog is doing what you want because it is avoiding punishment. If you find that your dog is avoiding punishment more than wanting to do the things you ask because it's fun and they earn rewards, then I'd think most people would want to re-evaluate their training methods.

[gamblingstats]

You're trainer isn't completely wrong, tugging on the prong will redirect her attention, but she redirects her attention because the tug causes her to be uncomfortable.

I don't think your pulling anything out of your ass. I think this is a very popular way of working on loose lead walking and reinforcing commands, I won't even say that it's completely wrong. I just get cringey whenever I hear this method in combination with the attitude that;

My dog does it because I said so, NOT because of food.

When in reality, your dog does it because he's learned not listening to you is painful, instead of listening to you results in good things happening.

I use correction methods myself so I'm not trying to bang on them, I just think if you are going to use a correction based method, as a dog owner and intelligent human, you have to admit to yourself that your dog is doing what you want because it is avoiding punishment. If you find that your dog is avoiding punishment more than wanting to do the things you ask because it's fun and they earn rewards, then I'd think most people would want to re-evaluate their training methods.

ok, thanks. Like I said, I can't read my dog's mind about why she's responding to me, but I'm sure the aversion is part of it. I do reward her with verbal and physical affection which makes her happier than any treat generally. Basically what the trainer said is she should be responding because I'm telling her to do it, that it's not a debate and she needs to follow the command. Sorry if I mischaracterized it. I'm doing my best to train her and have a well-mannered member of canine society.

[fujitsusi]

I use correction methods myself so I'm not trying to bang on them, I just think if you are going to use a correction based method, as a dog owner and intelligent human, you have to admit to yourself that your dog is doing what you want because it is avoiding punishment. If you find that your dog is avoiding punishment more than wanting to do the things you ask because it's fun and they earn rewards, then I'd think most people would want to re-evaluate their training methods.

This is what I was saying, to a point. My issue with using a prong to check the dog is the dog is avoiding punishment moreso than listening because it actually gives a damn what you're saying. It cares because the collar is on and there's no other system of correction, attention grabbing or command reinforcement in place. So once the collar comes off, there's no reason to listen to you. Though to be honest I am not a fan of food based training either, as it causes many of the same problems. Once the food is gone, there is no reason to listen to you

[sabbixsweraco]

Oh you're trainer is right

I preach that most commands should never be doubled up on. You give the command once, than enforce it.

Nothing I hate to see more than someone say; My dog knows sit! Than proceed to beg them for 3 minutes to sit,sit, sit, sit please sit, sit... lol. Those are my advil days

[gamblingstats]

Oh you're trainer is right

I preach that most commands should never be doubled up on. You give the command once, than enforce it.

Nothing I hate to see more than someone say; My dog knows sit! Than proceed to beg them for 3 minutes to sit,sit, sit, sit please sit, sit... lol. Those are my advil days

Yes, that's what I was trying to say in my OP (but apparently didn't do very well). She gets once chance to follow the command and then I enforce it.

Before I ever worked with this trainer, I was trying that on my own. I remember when I wanted her to sit on a corner outside before crossing the street and she would not listen so I stood there for about 35 minutes with her until she finally did before we moved forward. People were staring at us and wondering what was going on but I was not going to move until she sat.

[tgs]

^ That is motivation, standing there for 35mins. Christ.

[LClan439]

Best training advice I've ever received: Don't get frustrated.

[gamblingstats]

she was a stubborn little bitch when I first adopted her

It took a while, but now she sits automatically when I stop at a curb.

[BenWired306]

Definitely NILIF training, I just started it with Leon during vacation because I think it makes for a polite dog that everyone compliments me on. I've gotten compliments about how nicely Leon waits for his food, or how nicely he waits while I put a slip lead on, or how he politely sits at the front door when we enter someone's home and doesn't jump all over them.

I use treats, verbal and physical affection. No prong collar yet, haven't felt the need for it.

Now with my last foster, the Prong collar and treats combined made for an amazing combo. "command", if she didn't listen then "correction", force command. Then repeat. If she did the command without need of correction then she got a treat and praise. That worked for us then, not saying it'd work for every dog or that I'd do it again. But for that dog it was like magic!

[genna]

I just broke down and took the prongs out of my car because I realized I hadn't used them in more than a year.
Since I train in agility and weight pull, I'm going to be asking a lot from my dog. When competing, my dog doesn't have a collar on, I can't touch it, and I can't have any treats or toy rewards on my person. If my dog only listened because they wanted to avoid a consequence, I would have a lot of trouble.
I find dogs trained primarily w/aversives don't look very happy. They may be compliant, but they don't look eager. My youngest dog, whose been trained w/largely positive methods (all her agility and weight pull) is amazingly eager to learn. She is in no way always good, she's a drivey, impulsive dog, and it may take longer to train her as a result, but the final product (if there is such a thing), should be great.

[itsmycock]

"Training is a journey, not a destination. If you think you've arrived, you've already missed out."

And to take a break and play as soon as frustration starts.

[cliceperperIa]

teaching your dog that listening to you gets it a treat works great until it sees something it wants more -how good is your recall then?

corrective training (see Kohler) has proven very effective. The prong simulates a dog bite. It is safer than a choke chain. I have tried it out on my arm and leg and felt almost nothing --granted, my arm is not a neck, but a bull dog's neck is probably just as sturdy as my arm and i think my dog has proven that to me quite well. when you graduate to taking the prong off, that's when the throw chain (gasp!) proves very effective at any distance.

NILIF was just a natural (no duh) sort of training before i knew it had a name. Wonderful for training good Manners, but, with my current dog, useless for anything else.

If you don't bribe your children to do what you say, then why would you bribe an animal? If you Do bribe your childr....nah, i won't go there.

If your trainer's methods are working well, then i say "yay you, high five!"

[NEWyear]

Best training advice I ever got was to learn how to use clicker training. I posted a video about it on my site you could scroll down and see the video. http://thebullybreedblog.com/2011/12...ing-a-pit-bull

Bar none the most effective method I have ever used and I have an 11 week old Pit pup doing tricks along with learning to heel and use specific obedience commands that took me almost a year to get fully adapted into my first pup before I was aware of it.

[CaseyFronczekHomie]

NILIF. Oh, and crates. Crate training kept me from killing my dogs.

[Czrzftmz]

mix things up. it gets boring working on the same thing all the time.

on other thing on the prong collar. i use one for my boy in training but i do mix it up on him where at home sometimes i use it but sometimes i will use a slip collar i made him and other times i will use his flat collar. he listens to me not the collar.

[LClan439]

This is my thing with training- sure, 'sit', 'down', 'come', 'stay' should all be solid commands and it's important that the dog understands them because listening to those commands will keep them out of trouble. They should be proofed to the max, including with the use of prongs to PROOF, not teach. I don't believe any behavior should be taught by force.

But...

EVERY other command is a command used to have FUN. Every other behavior is one for FUN. So, why would I want to train my dog in a manner that she does not find fun? If it's not fun, it's not worth doing. I do flyball and agility with my dog (and lure coursing, but there's not much training for that). If someone wants to come and show me how force training my dog in either of those sports is going to benefit her more than how she's currently being trained, they can be my guest. But they'd be hard pressed to convince me, seeing as those sports require you to be a TEAM. Why the hell would my dog want to be my teammate when all she gets are corrections?

Nope. Sorry. I think I will positively reward her for what she does right and gently correct her when she messes up. Food is not a bribe, it's a reward. If you need food to constantly 'bribe' your dog, chances are you'll need a prong to constantly correct your dog. It's about you creating consistency.

I want my dog to work for me because she enjoys working for me, not because I'm making her work for me. I guess it's about the kind of relationship you want with your dog- do you want to be a team, or do you want to be a master with a servent? The key here is, once you create that team bond, there's no need to force yourself into the role of 'master of the universe', your dog already thinks you are.

I like when my dog accomplishes something and looks at me like "YAY look at what I did, you showed me how to do it and I did it right and you're happy so I'm happy and this is awesome!" You don't get that with force training. And to me, without that, whatever training I'm doing isn't worth it.

[AlabamaBoyz]

Though to be honest I am not a fan of food based training either, as it causes many of the same problems. Once the food is gone, there is no reason to listen to you

Thats why trainers have to use variable reinforcement schedules in their work with a dog. Whether its food or toys, the dog needs paid for doing it right after the behavior is marked correctly. Would you go to work everyday if you didn't get paid?

Best training advice I've ever received: Don't get frustrated.

Yes!

I just broke down and took the prongs out of my car because I realized I hadn't used them in more than a year.
Since I train in agility and weight pull, I'm going to be asking a lot from my dog. When competing, my dog doesn't have a collar on, I can't touch it, and I can't have any treats or toy rewards on my person. If my dog only listened because they wanted to avoid a consequence, I would have a lot of trouble.
I find dogs trained primarily w/aversives don't look very happy. They may be compliant, but they don't look eager. My youngest dog, whose been trained w/largely positive methods (all her agility and weight pull) is amazingly eager to learn. She is in no way always good, she's a drivey, impulsive dog, and it may take longer to train her as a result, but the final product (if there is such a thing), should be great.

Great post!!!

This is my thing with training- sure, 'sit', 'down', 'come', 'stay' should all be solid commands and it's important that the dog understands them because listening to those commands will keep them out of trouble. They should be proofed to the max, including with the use of prongs to PROOF, not teach. I don't believe any behavior should be taught by force.

But...

EVERY other command is a command used to have FUN. Every other behavior is one for FUN. So, why would I want to train my dog in a manner that she does not find fun? If it's not fun, it's not worth doing. I do flyball and agility with my dog (and lure coursing, but there's not much training for that). If someone wants to come and show me how force training my dog in either of those sports is going to benefit her more than how she's currently being trained, they can be my guest. But they'd be hard pressed to convince me, seeing as those sports require you to be a TEAM. Why the hell would my dog want to be my teammate when all she gets are corrections?

Nope. Sorry. I think I will positively reward her for what she does right and gently correct her when she messes up. Food is not a bribe, it's a reward. If you need food to constantly 'bribe' your dog, chances are you'll need a prong to constantly correct your dog. It's about you creating consistency.

I want my dog to work for me because she enjoys working for me, not because I'm making her work for me. I guess it's about the kind of relationship you want with your dog- do you want to be a team, or do you want to be a master with a servent? The key here is, once you create that team bond, there's no need to force yourself into the role of 'master of the universe', your dog already thinks you are.

I like when my dog accomplishes something and looks at me like "YAY look at what I did, you showed me how to do it and I did it right and you're happy so I'm happy and this is awesome!" You don't get that with force training. And to me, without that, whatever training I'm doing isn't worth it.

Also a great post!

[sabbixsweraco]

/snip
I want my dog to work for me because she enjoys working for me, not because I'm making her work for me. I guess it's about the kind of relationship you want with your dog- do you want to be a team, or do you want to be a master with a servent? The key here is, once you create that team bond, there's no need to force yourself into the role of 'master of the universe', your dog already thinks you are.

I like when my dog accomplishes something and looks at me like "YAY look at what I did, you showed me how to do it and I did it right and you're happy so I'm happy and this is awesome!" You don't get that with force training. And to me, without that, whatever training I'm doing isn't worth it.

When I first started, I started with a much harder mentality. My mentor and boss is an older, koehler style trainer (I actually really enjoyed reading koehler's books dedicated towards each level of obedience training) so you go with what you know right. Once PR training was introduced to me, by a wonderful woman on a dog board, I started thinking along the lines quoted.

I don't mind giving a pop here or there if Hades is being a turd on a walk, but I don't need Hades to track, or air scent, or have perfectly straight fronts/arounds/swings etc. Hades life as a canine good neighbor does not require him to respond to solely verbal cues, or solely hand signals, or to perform various position behaviours from a 100 foot distance. We do it because it's fun, we can and I enjoy training my dog to be better than your average pooch.

I find relationship based training isn't for everyone, because not everyone is interested in having a two-way communication relationship with a dog. Whatever floats your boat, but it gets under my skin when people say it can't be done.

Another stolen quote in regards to dog training that I recently heard and makes me smile when people say food training doesn't result in reliable dogs, or you'll always need food to have a reliable dog, or dogs and cats never get along, or whatever "in" thing to discredit:

"Those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those doing it."