[molaunterbizone]

Sinister, even Ambully breeders do it.

I'm sure BlueStark won't mind me using one of his dogs as an example.
http://apbt.virtualpedigrees.com/det...id=1024&gens=7

A closer look.
http://apbt.virtualpedigrees.com/details.php?id=69523

[eladiopsislab]

nothing out of the ordinary about inbreeding. with my male pup, if you look at his ped, youll see the same few names popping up all over the place. my wife thought there was something wrong with it when she saw his ped but, its a common practice.

[Bugamerka]

When my younger son saw that one of my dogs' sire was also his grand-sire, he said, "Whoa, that's embarassing, I wouldn't be telling anyone about that"

[molaunterbizone]

LOL @ Dispatch.

[Snitiendumurn]

Sinister, you want inbred? I'll show ya inbred!

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [55676] :: WEAVER'S TIGER.

This dog has an all-breed Level I weight pulling title & he is pointed in conformation under both American AND European judges. In this first show he took Best Male, Best Veteran Male, Best Rednose & Best in Show, beating out as UKC GR.CH. to do so. His second show he took Reserve Best in Show. The judge said he would have given him BIS in that show as well, but he has scars & some chipped teeth, so he had to give him Reserve. Oh & BTW he is also an AKC CGC.

So put that in your pipe & smoke it!

Peace & happiness ...

[VINPELA]

LOL!!

[yPuqQ248]

Sinister, you want inbred? I'll show ya inbred!

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [55676] :: WEAVER'S TIGER.

This dog has an all-breed Level I weight pulling title & he is pointed in conformation under both American AND European judges. In this first show he took Best Male, Best Veteran Male, Best Rednose & Best in Show, beating out as UKC GR.CH. to do so. His second show he took Reserve Best in Show. The judge said he would have given him BIS in that show as well, but he has scars & some chipped teeth, so he had to give him Reserve. Oh & BTW he is also an AKC CGC.

So put that in your pipe & smoke it!

Peace & happiness ...

Put a answer to a question in a pipe and smoke it? I got better stuff in my pipe to smoke

Can't learn much without questions, the only real stupid question is the one left unasked...

[ResistNewWorldOrder]

i would think so....but when u line breed or inbreed your gonna pass on good and bad traits.

[Gskdmidd]

There is a difference between asking a question and baiting. If you have a issue with a forum member take it to PMs. Do not do it in the open forum. We are all adults and should act as such.

Inbreeding is a very useful tool if done correctly and you cull as needed. I have inbred dogs and could not be happier with them.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...?dog_id=273338

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...?dog_id=301908

[yPuqQ248]

There is a difference between asking a question and baiting. If you have a issue with a forum member take it to PMs. Do not do it in the open forum. We are all adults and should act as such.

Im sorry but the question is valid, The question was spawned out of a lil beef, but the question is valid all the same.

One unfamiliar with the ins and out of incest breeding etc would be surprised to see the Great Grand Daddy is also the Grand Dad, and the same Dogs Great great grandma is the same dog that's the Grandmother 2 times to the dog, making the Dogs Grand parents also brother and sis...

I also read that while incest breeding is not necessarily Bad, it also has its negative side, and potential issues. Playing God has never been an exact science...

IN The thread where I brought up my initial question, it was "off topic" and I was propositioned to open a thread, so I did.


Why aren't we working on making the perfect Dog, but a Robot Dog, if mass produced they will all be exactly the same...

[Gskdmidd]

Im sorry but the question is valid, The question was spawned out of a lil beef, but the question is valid all the same.

One unfamiliar with the ins and out of incest breeding etc would be surprised to see the Great Grand Daddy is also the Grand Dad, and the same Dogs Great great grandma is the same dog that's the Grandmother 2 times to the dog, making the Dogs Grand parents also brother and sis...

I also read that while incest breeding is not necessarily Bad, it also has its negative side, and potential issues. Playing God has never been an exact science...

IN The thread where I brought up my initial question, it was "off topic" and I was propositioned to open a thread, so I did.


Why aren't we working on making the perfect Dog, but a Robot Dog, if mass produced they will all be exactly the same...

Again if you have an issue with a certain member take it to PMS. The question may be a valid one but some of the other things that have been said are not. This topic has been covered MANY times on here. All you have to do is search.

[gusecrync]

To "create" a fixed type of dog inbreeding is usually necessary, especially in the early stages of developing a breed. What you are doing is basically taking a dog you want to reproduce, and trying to get offspring that turn out just like him by "fixing" the desirable genes. You do this by mating him with closely related females that display as many of the same traits as possible. Out of the resulting puppies, the individuals with what you want are kept and possibly mated back to a closely related dog in hopes of upping the percentage of what you're looking for in this resulting generation. In a perfect program all of the desirable traits are expressed in every single puppy while the negative traits are repressed.

Of course the world isn't perfect, so this also concentrates the undesirable traits which is why precise culling has to take place. Inbreeding can be overdone and result in a weaker line, but people who know what they're doing will throw in an outcross (or at least a more removed similarly bred dog) into their program if they see this happening. The resulting cross results in a mixing of genes that hopefully result in hybrid vigor in this first generation. The vigor generally is washed out in a generation or two which is why you see so many closely bred dogs in working situations.

With outcrosses (or more often in scatterbreeding) you tend to get more traits randomly popping up you don't necessarily want. This of course drives your "keeper" percentage down resulting in wasted time and money. So these traits are bred back out of the line in successive generations through line or inbreeding until you get to the point of needing an out again. It's kind of a cycle as I understand it.

[yPuqQ248]

To "create" a fixed type of dog inbreeding is usually necessary, especially in the early stages of developing a breed. What you are doing is basically taking a dog you want to reproduce, and trying to get offspring that turn out just like him by "fixing" the desirable genes. You do this by mating him with closely related females that display as many of the same traits as possible. Out of the resulting puppies, the individuals with what you want are kept and possibly mated back to a closely related dog in hopes of upping the percentage of what you're looking for in this resulting generation. In a perfect program all of the desirable traits are expressed in every single puppy while the negative traits are repressed.

Of course the world isn't perfect, so this also concentrates the undesirable traits which is why precise culling has to take place. Inbreeding can be overdone and result in a weaker line, but people who know what they're doing will throw in an outcross (or at least a more removed similarly bred dog) into their program if they see this happening. The resulting cross results in a mixing of genes that hopefully result in hybrid vigor in this first generation. The vigor generally is washed out in a generation or two which is why you see so many closely bred dogs in working situations.

With outcrosses (or more often in scatterbreeding) you tend to get more traits randomly popping up you don't necessarily want. This of course drives your "keeper" percentage down resulting in wasted time and money. So these traits are bred back out of the line in successive generations through line or inbreeding until you get to the point of needing an out again. It's kind of a cycle as I understand it.

How can you spot overdone inbreeding? What would be defined as "too much"?

[Snitiendumurn]

It's called inbreeding depression. Use the search engine & look it up, it should be covered there.

Peace ...

[gusecrync]

Weird physical or mental traits popping up, less general vigor, genetic diseases popping up, failure to perform, etc.

[Doctor-CTAC]

It is true inbreeding can create horrific genetic mistakes or it can be the best and fastest way to improve and standardize a line (set traits). IN the first sense it is a useful genetic tool to reveal hidden recessive genetic problems in your line by doubling up on them and making them express themselves (as it were LOL). Note this is a tool used to reveal hidden defects and these defectives should be culled from the breeding pool. In the second sense when your line is heterotrophic for beneficial traits you can do inbreeding to make them homozygous (set the trait). Note it must be a tremendously important trait or preferably numerous traits you are trying to set within your line to consider inbreeding as the best method to set the trait. So here inbreedings are done to verify the superiority of a particular strain or to check for recessive problems. Any weaknesses, faults, deformities, etc. are likely to show up. If a truly superior line or strain has been developed, containing only desirable qualities, these desirable qualities will be seen in the resulting offspring.


That sound too technical. It's not me.. just found that information over the net. Hehe. When we breed.. we always look from the great dogs of the past. Then copy the combination of their blood that produce champion dogs. You might not get the exact copy of course but at least a better chance to get a good dog. So studying the dog pedigree is really essential in breeding.

[verybigf]

So imbreeding IS NOT frowned upon?

It is and it isnt. Depends on why you are inbreeding.

If the dog is solid,to standard,healthy, proven and has highly desired traits,the no it is not neccicerily frowned on.Small amounts of intense linebreeding or sometimes inbreeding,can 'refine' desired traits that show up in a dog and it also replicated in his offspring.It can be useful to breed into and refine a dogs progeny with a highly desired trait or traits.

If the dogs are not good specimens of the breed,not sound,and have little to no desired traits,no health screening and are repetitively bred to related dogs equally lacking.It can be disasterous for the progeny,with only a ''fluke'' chance of heredity that one comes out a truely proper specimen.

With inbreeding and line breeding,you get what you put in for the most part. If desired traits and good strong genes go in-you may end up with some really lovely progeny with the exact traits you wanted.Not all of this inbred/linebred progeny will bare the desired traits,(due to laws of heredity/genetic shuffling)but they will not typically 'lack' in integrity as much as poorly bred specimins.

With inbreeding,its a gamble with what you will get.To increase your chances,you need to play the best genetic odds.That's why you need to work with good genes,healthy stable dogs and know the risks and benifits of the dogs lineage inside and out of what those genes will throw.It can sway the odds in your favor, with the correct combo of sire and dam,educated pairings and if the risks and benifits are weighed by knowledge of the 2 dogs lineage and past progeny.

[yPuqQ248]

Prophecy & Rainmaker, great info, much appreciated!

I'm researching and learning, all this helps.

It seems to be quite a common practice, looking at some pedigrees Ive found some dogs that have multiple inbred dogs in the Ped, some of them play multiple roles (Grad dad, father, & brother) & those Dogs were of incest when checking their Peds, then going even deeper, more incest. I really had no idea.

Its like a tool for anti evolution.

[pheelixoss]

LOL @ incest breeding. Look up the definition of incest. I don't know too many dogs that get married. It's also not a crime to inbreed dogs. So therefore incest is a term referring to humans.

in·cest (nsst) KEY

NOUN:

1. Sexual relations between persons who are so closely related that their marriage is illegal or forbidden by custom.
2. The statutory crime of sexual relations with such a near relative.

Here's a dog with plenty of inbreeding going on. A GR CH 4, #2 ranked champion in the world in 08, and #3 in 09.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...?dog_id=230044

Bred him back to his grandma to produce some amazing pups that are rocking it already. Charlie is almost a CH already @ 7 months old. Sure to be taking some cups in the champions class one day too. Here's a ped for the breeding.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...?dog_id=318056

[VINPELA]

Anti evolution? Why fix it if it ain't broke?

Here's a dog with plenty of inbreeding going on. A GR CH 4, #2 ranked champion in the world in 08, and #3 in 09.

Holy crap I did not know that. You are taking over the world LOL! If I don't see you at Tri State you know I'll be driving down to wherever the heck you are right? 2 nights in a row with the puppy dreams, meanie.