[Machater]

The thread about dogs as property got me thinking. If dogs were treated as property should a person who is an irresponsible owner (ie: loves pitbull puppies but continuously gets rid of them when they are a year -i know this happens) be unable to own dogs? Or should shelters just continue to pay to euthanize these dogs, spend resources on them, and often take tax payer dollars to deal with them?

If dogs are property to what extent should the owners who: relentlessly breed, surrender dogs, leave dogs for dead, etc be handled?

[JonnLeejsp]

When someone says something is your "property" I tend to think of the mindset of "do what you want with it" (get rid of it if it doesn't suit you, throw it out, whatever); which is why I like the idea of some states going towards the "legal guardian" of a pet.

[BluewayAllere]

pets are property meaning they have the right to animal welfare thats it. not property compared to lets say a "pool table".
a gun is considered "property" yet still requires responsible ownership.
getting a dog, keeping it for a month then dumping it is not responsible ownership.

[bmwservis]

I personally think that if you have been proven to be an irresponsible owner that you should not be able own dogs again. But then again, I also think that irresponsible parents should not be allowed to have children.

[Khurlxgq]

Its all going to be a grey area.... thast what animal welfare laws are in place for... you get caught starving a dog to death you get into trouble.... you get caught beating a dog with a bat you get into trouble....

As far as breeding goes... I don't believe you can properly regulate that and punish just the BYBers... it would effect all breeders and thats not fair in my eyes. Personally I'll never take a dog to the vet again to be euth'ed... I'll do it myself. The same with any breedings I do in the future those I can't place or sell and I don't keep will be culled, there will be none going to a shelter.

But again I think alot of laws that target irresponsible owners will effect ALL owners... just like how the HSUS has put up billboards "How to catch a dogfighter" It effects everyone that owns a treadmill, springpole, flirt pole, parting stick, chain set up.....

[Machater]

Its all going to be a grey area.... thast what animal welfare laws are in place for... you get caught starving a dog to death you get into trouble.... you get caught beating a dog with a bat you get into trouble....

As far as breeding goes... I don't believe you can properly regulate that and punish just the BYBers... it would effect all breeders and thats not fair in my eyes. Personally I'll never take a dog to the vet again to be euth'ed... I'll do it myself. The same with any breedings I do in the future those I can't place or sell and I don't keep will be culled, there will be none going to a shelter.

But again I think alot of laws that target irresponsible owners will effect ALL owners... just like how the HSUS has put up billboards "How to catch a dogfighter" It effects everyone that owns a treadmill, springpole, flirt pole, parting stick, chain set up.....

So do you think breeders who breed constantly and cant find homes and put say %50 down is ok? It is a thin line between those who breed for money and put down for finances and those who put down because they cant place ONE dog out of a whole litter, the laws arent that pliable

[foI3fKWv]

I think its alright for breeders to put dogs they can't place down. It cuts down on potentially irresponsible owners to set the dogs up to fail.

[Khurlxgq]

Thats what I am saying Boston.... I don't think its possible to have a law that makes that distinction between someone who puts down 1/2 of every litter and the person that puts down 1 out of 50 litters.

Because then the law must dictate how many dogs you can produce.... and if I am a responsible breeder and I breed 50 pups a year and place 50 pups a year.... you run into my right to be a dog breeder.... and tell me how many dogs I can produce... nobody tells Honda how many cars to make a year if the market supports them to sell a million cars then they should be allowed to sell a million.... and if the market allows a breeder to sell 100 pups.... they should be allowed to sell them.

I just don't think its possible to create a "fair" law that will distinguish between a "good" breeder and a "bad" breeder...

Tom Garner might put more pups on the ground than many would like... but if he can move them why should someone be able to tell him no you can't sell that many in a year? .... Because they fill up shelters? Then you'd have to prove the dogs he sold ended up in shelters... I just don't think its feasible.

---------- Post added at 08:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 PM ----------

I agree as well.

I think its alright for breeders to put dogs they can't place down. It cuts down on potentially irresponsible owners to set the dogs up to fail.

[lomonel]

I think its alright for breeders to put dogs they can't place down. It cuts down on potentially irresponsible owners to set the dogs up to fail.

i also agree with the culling/euthanizing too.

[JamesTornC]

So do you think breeders who breed constantly and cant find homes and put say %50 down is ok? It is a thin line between those who breed for money and put down for finances and those who put down because they cant place ONE dog out of a whole litter, the laws aren't that pliable

NCPG is in a whole different realm of thinking... He's not talking about some "Hell, I'll just give the rest away to kids in the neighborhood.." or "If I can't make a few dollars off the others I'll just take them to the pound, they'll find good homes for them!"

He's talking about true ethics in breeding...That gut-wrenching, guilt sickening kind of love for them that'll make you want to quit all together, if you didn't think about the bigger picture. There are still a few of us scattered about that believe in putting the breed as a whole, above all else. Above our own emotions, above a bloodline, even above a cute little puppy born deaf. Hell, even great breeders have been known to place a dog rather than do the right thing and take that dog down.

The dogs are a blessing, but to truly love anything you have to willingly suffer for it. There's no glory in raising a dog, loving it, giving it the best you've got (whether food or attention or medical care), investing years in it, then evaluate that animal and have to admit, "Average, At best. And average is never gonna improve the breed." Then have to get the pistol, a leash, and your dog...your happy, excited little ball of energy.. and put a bullet in it's head. And I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT AT A DISTANCE OR CLOSING YOUR FUCKING EYES, because there's too much love and respect in that relationship. You man up, you take that responsibility, and that guilt, and the pain, and you give that animal the quick, painless exit it deserves.

You fret with it, but in the sadness is a comfort....You remained true. True to the dogs, true to your ethics, and true to all those in the past who did the same things. You'll never see a report about famous dogmen that details those days when they went out to the cull pit, and by the end of the day had buried 10-15 dogs. We don't share those stories, but that's what truly makes the breed! Not the wins...

They say people get into these dogs for two reasons...Passion and Glory.

"Uh..shit guys! Sorry for the rant!"
Short answer..breeding just to breed is wrong. But the truth is no matter how selective and careful we are, euth'ing dogs is the most important thing a breeder can do. Well that, and being honest about your program, your dogs, and how successful are they compared to your peers?

[UltraSearchs]

Boston you crack me up girl. I love you dive head first to the controversial crap

Now if only there was a shit stirrer emoticon to go with this.......

---------- Post added at 04:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:15 AM ----------

I didnt know whether to start waving an American flag or salute at the end of this post.....Maybe amazing grace.....

NCPG is in a whole different realm of thinking... He's not talking about some "Hell, I'll just give the rest away to kids in the neighborhood.." or "If I can't make a few dollars off the others I'll just take them to the pound, they'll find good homes for them!"

He's talking about true ethics in breeding...That gut-wrenching, guilt sickening kind of love for them that'll make you want to quit all together, if you didn't think about the bigger picture. There are still a few of us scattered about that believe in putting the breed as a whole, above all else. Above our own emotions, above a bloodline, even above a cute little puppy born deaf. Hell, even great breeders have been known to place a dog rather than do the right thing and take that dog down.

The dogs are a blessing, but to truly love anything you have to willingly suffer for it. There's no glory in raising a dog, loving it, giving it the best you've got (whether food or attention or medical care), investing years in it, then evaluate that animal and have to admit, "Average, At best. And average is never gonna improve the breed." Then have to get the pistol, a leash, and your dog...your happy, excited little ball of energy.. and put a bullet in it's head. And I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT AT A DISTANCE OR CLOSING YOUR FUCKING EYES, because there's too much love and respect in that relationship. You man up, you take that responsibility, and that guilt, and the pain, and you give that animal the quick, painless exit it deserves.

You fret with it, but in the sadness is a comfort....You remained true. True to the dogs, true to your ethics, and true to all those in the past who did the same things. You'll never see a report about famous dogmen that details those days when they went out to the cull pit, and by the end of the day had buried 10-15 dogs. We don't share those stories, but that's what truly makes the breed! Not the wins...

They say people get into these dogs for two reasons...Passion and Glory.

"Uh..shit guys! Sorry for the rant!"
Short answer..breeding just to breed is wrong. But the truth is no matter how selective and careful we are, euth'ing dogs is the most important thing a breeder can do. Well that, and being honest about your program, your dogs, and how successful are they compared to your peers?

[BluewayAllere]

good post, it would be great if anybody thinking of becoming a breeder could read this first!

NCPG is in a whole different realm of thinking... He's not talking about some "Hell, I'll just give the rest away to kids in the neighborhood.." or "If I can't make a few dollars off the others I'll just take them to the pound, they'll find good homes for them!"

He's talking about true ethics in breeding...That gut-wrenching, guilt sickening kind of love for them that'll make you want to quit all together, if you didn't think about the bigger picture. There are still a few of us scattered about that believe in putting the breed as a whole, above all else. Above our own emotions, above a bloodline, even above a cute little puppy born deaf. Hell, even great breeders have been known to place a dog rather than do the right thing and take that dog down.

The dogs are a blessing, but to truly love anything you have to willingly suffer for it. There's no glory in raising a dog, loving it, giving it the best you've got (whether food or attention or medical care), investing years in it, then evaluate that animal and have to admit, "Average, At best. And average is never gonna improve the breed." Then have to get the pistol, a leash, and your dog...your happy, excited little ball of energy.. and put a bullet in it's head. And I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT AT A DISTANCE OR CLOSING YOUR FUCKING EYES, because there's too much love and respect in that relationship. You man up, you take that responsibility, and that guilt, and the pain, and you give that animal the quick, painless exit it deserves.

You fret with it, but in the sadness is a comfort....You remained true. True to the dogs, true to your ethics, and true to all those in the past who did the same things. You'll never see a report about famous dogmen that details those days when they went out to the cull pit, and by the end of the day had buried 10-15 dogs. We don't share those stories, but that's what truly makes the breed! Not the wins...

They say people get into these dogs for two reasons...Passion and Glory.

"Uh..shit guys! Sorry for the rant!"
Short answer..breeding just to breed is wrong. But the truth is no matter how selective and careful we are, euth'ing dogs is the most important thing a breeder can do. Well that, and being honest about your program, your dogs, and how successful are they compared to your peers?

[astonmartinrx371]

Love the post by blacksunshine, brought tears to my eyes.

[Ebjjrxrd]

great post blacksunshine. That is how a true responsible breeder should be.

[Cheaperisdeeper]

which is why I like the idea of some states going towards the "legal guardian" of a pet.

That has to be the winner for the dumb comment of the day award.To consider the pet the same as a child is ridiculious.Legal Guardian,LOL

[VEGLAS - SPB]

The trouble is in the eyes of the law dogs are merely property. I own a tennis racquet and choose to hit stones with it until its completely rooted, but there is nothing illegal about what I do so its nobodies concern other than my own. I know a few people who have their dogs as guard dogs and they guard very effectively. It may not be what the breed was developed for and may not be in the best interests of the breed, but its also not illegal to own a guard dog so there is nothing anyone can say about it. If its not illegal to breed dogs and they are in fact property, what right does anyone have, other than moral standing, to tell them otherwise?

[Cheaperisdeeper]

Just because a way of thinking is different than yours, it does not make that way of thinking dumb.

Maybe not on some things but when people start to give animals human rights it's a bit much.

[Khurlxgq]

Blacksunshine... Thanks for understanding where I was going with my post.. And that was a freaking awesome post you made.. well said sir!

[Machater]

NCPG is in a whole different realm of thinking... He's not talking about some "Hell, I'll just give the rest away to kids in the neighborhood.." or "If I can't make a few dollars off the others I'll just take them to the pound, they'll find good homes for them!"

He's talking about true ethics in breeding...That gut-wrenching, guilt sickening kind of love for them that'll make you want to quit all together, if you didn't think about the bigger picture. There are still a few of us scattered about that believe in putting the breed as a whole, above all else. Above our own emotions, above a bloodline, even above a cute little puppy born deaf. Hell, even great breeders have been known to place a dog rather than do the right thing and take that dog down.

The dogs are a blessing, but to truly love anything you have to willingly suffer for it. There's no glory in raising a dog, loving it, giving it the best you've got (whether food or attention or medical care), investing years in it, then evaluate that animal and have to admit, "Average, At best. And average is never gonna improve the breed." Then have to get the pistol, a leash, and your dog...your happy, excited little ball of energy.. and put a bullet in it's head. And I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT AT A DISTANCE OR CLOSING YOUR FUCKING EYES, because there's too much love and respect in that relationship. You man up, you take that responsibility, and that guilt, and the pain, and you give that animal the quick, painless exit it deserves.

You fret with it, but in the sadness is a comfort....You remained true. True to the dogs, true to your ethics, and true to all those in the past who did the same things. You'll never see a report about famous dogmen that details those days when they went out to the cull pit, and by the end of the day had buried 10-15 dogs. We don't share those stories, but that's what truly makes the breed! Not the wins...

They say people get into these dogs for two reasons...Passion and Glory.

"Uh..shit guys! Sorry for the rant!"
Short answer..breeding just to breed is wrong. But the truth is no matter how selective and careful we are, euth'ing dogs is the most important thing a breeder can do. Well that, and being honest about your program, your dogs, and how successful are they compared to your peers?

Why would an "average" dog not be neutered/spayed and to a pet home? I am not saying a behaviorally/medically defected dog I am saying a perfectly fine average dog? Why is it acceptable to breed dogs and kill half of them? I understand the idea of property but you live in a society in which there has to be a reason to kill a dog or else it is animal cruelty. If you dont agree with that then what prevents someone from killing your dog and saying alright I will give you the $300 to replace it thanks in small claims court? If you really want dogs as property then they can be treated as such all around. Please nobody give me the "oh then I would kill that person" crap because that is quite the cop out of the quesiton.

My main issue is the choosing of the laws you abide by. Whether or not you believe in the laws does not mean they are not in place for a reason, if you agree with it you must agree with it to the fullest extent.

[katetomson]

why?
becaues there are allready TO MANY pets, regardless of breed.
and not every guy wants to be make a name by selling "good pet dogs".
there are still people that don't feel the need to have dogs as companion animals, and I totally agree that if a dog isn't cut for the job, PTS the animal, it will only be for the betterment of the breed.

people must stop thinking about individual DOGS and start thinking about BREEDS and dogs in general before making statements as "but why don't they just S/N and place as a pet?"
there are just to much dogs being produced to not cull (and cull hard) and not be selective with breeding.

and must I remind you, that "placing dogs in pet homes instead of culling" is the exact same mentality that caused our breed so much harm?

think about this, if the old dogmen of the past culled ALL of the unwanted dogs, than maybe we wouldn't all have our dogs today, but the breed wouldn't suffer the way it does today..

just my 2 cents