[majestictwelve]

A quick google

>>But perhaps they have not always been part of the inner-Sydney scene.

[Mister.levitra]

They would not have been in the Sydney area around settlement as both the aborigines AND the people off the First Fleet would have been feasting on them and the latter not near starvation. A little common sense would not go astray either.

What makes you think they didn't? They are up to a kilo of good meat at different times of year. Some groups of aboriginal people did not eat them because of cultural reasons but there are records of the various species being eaten at different times.

They are not as easy to catch as you might imagine because a normal camp situation because they roost over 10 metres and can see any projectiles (or people) coming. Colonial roosting obviously has advantages for predator awareness. While in flight might be the easiest time although this has the disadvantage for the hungry of hunting a highly mobile target in the dark.

Finally, the view that they could not be in the Sydney area or else they would have been eaten to the point of extinction is particularly illogical: the animals live up and down the east coast. Humans have lived up and down the east coast for the best part of the last 40,000 or 60,000 years (or whatever the latest records indicate). These two species have co-existed for that time in some kind of balance. Subsequent to the arrival of Europeans the various species appear to have suffered from increasing declines; not associated with being a food source; but with being unpopular, loss of both feeding and roosting habitat and a competitor for similar food sources.

As someone who holds themselves out as an academic I am surprised by the lack of factual material and rigour shown in your arguments. I am at a loss as to where to suggest you start to remedy your knowledge deficient; perhaps Francis Ratcliffe's 1931 Report would be a useful beginning as that will at least get you off the ground. It would be worth your checking out the SPRAT and the other associated pages.

I don't expect you to change your mind regarding the dispersal of the bats from the RBG but perhaps you might be able to put together some more coherent arguments.

I have spent a great deal of time discussing with many people the various merits of the BGDT's intentions but rarely have I met someone who attempts to engage with this subject who is so lacking in knowledge.

[warrgazur]

>>Finally, the view that they could not be in the Sydney area or else they would have been eaten to the point of extinction is particularly illogical:

[Mister.levitra]

[quote]>>Finally, the view that they could not be in the Sydney area or else they would have been eaten to the point of extinction is particularly illogical:

[warrgazur]

It's nice that you can make these statements in complete ignorance and without making the effort to do the research that would enlighten you.

Keep up the good work.

(here's a hint: Pteropus poliocephalus were recorded in the area at the time of settlement. East Coast Australia is the range of this endemic species.)

Grey-headed Flying-fox, Pteropus poliocephalus is listed as vulnerable, not rare or endangered. It occurs in numerous relatively large colonies in Qld, NSW and Victoria. Below is the experience of these bats in the Victorian Botanical Gardens and please if you can, advise how this colony has been disadvantaged to the point of population loss, because of their forced move. However, now the Melbourne Botanical Gardens can repair the damage done and the bats can establish themselves elsewhere in a less sensitive environment. So why can’t this also happen in the Sydney Botanic Gardens to the benefit of all?


>>Melbourne - permanent colonies
Since becoming permanently established at the Royal Botanic Gardens, Melbourne, in 1981, the colony's numbers have greatly increased. This population reached a total of 20 000 (static count) individuals in February-March 2001 (GFACTF 2001) and peaked, in summer 2003, with around 30 000 individuals (fly-out count) (DSE 2005f; van der Ree et al. 2004). Van der Ree et al. (2004) noted that the number of Grey-headed Flying-foxes within the colony fluctuated seasonally, with a peak in summer/autumn (December–May) and a trough in winter/spring (July–October).
In March 2003, a relocation program commenced, whereby Melbourne's flying-foxes were relocated from the Royal Botanic Gardens to form two new colonies. The main colony is located at Yarra Bend Park, five km north east of Melbourne's Central Business District, and the second smaller colony is at Eastern Park in Geelong, approximately 60 km south of the city (DSE 2005f).

[warrgazur]

>>Anyway, it's been real but you are a good time thief and I can't afford that.

[numinertyuesk]

A lot of people really hate fruit bats. Some of the stuff on the internet is pretty hair raising. I agree that they need protection, they are part of our natural heritage and we are well past the point that we can pick and choose what we protect. Like kangaroos they suffer from not being rare. You are never going to convince people they are rare when there are a dozen in the mango tree and a few thousand in the trees down the road. They have a bad image problem because they steal fruit and crap on people's cars. At least they are rare enough to avoid being culled, kangaroos jump in front of cars and are much too common to protect. Probably in the near future fruit bats will be rare enough to warrant more protection. I remember from my childhood in FNQ there was a colony of bats in the trees on the road to town. They always ate our mangos but people seemed to accept them. I wonder if that colony on the road between Ingam and Victoria Mill still exists. I don't have a solution to the problem in the RBG. The gardens are a much beloved part of Sydney and obviously people want to protect them.

[Mister.levitra]

A lot of people really hate fruit bats. Some of the stuff on the internet is pretty hair raising. I agree that they need protection, they are part of our natural heritage and we are well past the point that we can pick and choose what we protect. Like kangaroos they suffer from not being rare. You are never going to convince people they are rare when there are a dozen in the mango tree and a few thousand in the trees down the road. They have a bad image problem because they steal fruit and crap on people's cars. At least they are rare enough to avoid being culled, kangaroos jump in front of cars and are much too common to protect. Probably in the near future fruit bats will be rare enough to warrant more protection. I remember from my childhood in FNQ there was a colony of bats in the trees on the road to town. They always ate our mangos but people seemed to accept them. I wonder if that colony on the road between Ingam and Victoria Mill still exists. I don't have a solution to the problem in the RBG. The gardens are a much beloved part of Sydney and obviously people want to protect them.

There are four species of larger fruit bat living in Australia; two of them are listed as threatened (P poliocephalus and P conspicillatus). There are a various criteria that a species must fulfil before they are listed as threatened.

As you said in another thread; there are very good reasons for protecting a species while it is still relatively abundant, it is significantly cheaper than going all out when you have a species that is functionally extinct.

By the way, you might consider this thought: bats don't "steal" fruit, this is a human concept. While they are bright animals, their concept of "property" gives every impression of being limited to "I am eating this now and you are not". They forage in orchards or backyard fruit trees, usually because of a lack of suitable native food.

I very much hope that the listed species will not become rare enough to warrant a higher listing; or that the unlisted species will warrant listing. The present political climate means that, even if the species meet the required criteria, they are unlikely to receive the required protection.

Not withstanding my hope, I have every expectation that the two listed species will both be functionally extinct within 50 years and that the other species will briefly prosper but have the same fate. There appears to be very little change of the factors that threat the listed species; habitat destruction.

P poliocephalus presently has a generation length of 7 years (Divljan, 2008, Population ecology of the Grey-headed Flying-fox, Pteropus poliocephalus (PhD thesis) Tidemann and Nelson, 2011 Life Expectancy, Causes of Death and Movements of the Grey-Headed Flying-Fox (Pteropus poliocephalus) Inferred from Banding,). All four of the larger Australian flying-foxes requires a generation length of 15 years to maintain a stable population (McIlwee and Martin, 2002, On the intrinsic capacity for increase in Australian Flying-foxes)