[HedgeYourBets]

Two related points, which directly relate to the global conflict we are now engaged in:

First, under "Where is Muslim Good?"... this is a legitimate question. Religions are generally seen as forces for good. Not only for themselves, but for the world. But, aside from helping their own, I have not seen ANY movement from the Muslim clergy to produce, well, good. In the US, Judaism and Christianity were forces for Civil Rights. Today, even the misguided "human rights organizations" (and many not misguided ones) have huge Judeo-Christian (with more emphasis on the Christian) components. It was JEWS in the Weizman Institite that made an issue of MUSLIMS being slaughtered in Sudan. Secular Christians, still possessed of Judeo-Christian values (here you can fairly put both together) are the ones who make issues of Tibet, China HR, Russia HR, even Yugoslavia (helping Muslims) and even of the Pal Arabs. Combating AIDS in Africa - very secular, but with strong religion driven components.

Now, I guess you could ask this of Hinduism and Bhuddism (although the Dalai Lama is certainly a force for good in this world, as was Ghandi.)

But where is the "good" coming from the Islamic world. Where are the Islamic teachers working to make this a better place not just for Arabs and Muslims, but for others - in tangible ways (as opposed to "imposing Sharia makes the world better") Where are the VALUES? The only value we seem to see is (excessive) Pride and Jihad.

This question leads directly to the 2nd question:

Is the war on terror really a war to bring Islam back into the Abrahamic tradition? To Judeo-Christianize Islam? After all, why is there no issue with saying "Judeo-Christian" - because of the interrelation between the two - the sharing of the same core values, and yet you could not concieve of saying Judeo-Islamic?

Is it that the VALUES are different? And, if so, is this necessarily so?

Muslims in the western world, who have assimilated with, as opposed to those who have rejected the west, tend to share Judeo-Christian values within their practice of Islam. To them, you could say Judeo-Christian-Islamic values.

But the wahabis, to the salafis, to the believers in the Islamic revolution and the world wide Jihad, they certainly are not the same values. The strong Islamic imperialist trend dominates with them - the value is submission - submission of them to the strictures of Islam, and submission of the world to them (and Islam).

Is then, the war on terror, the same thing as the war to transmit, maybe even to at some level impose (or at least to open the door for) Judeo-Christian values into the Islamic world. To more fully make a set of "Judeo-Christian-Islamic" values?

If so, is Bush, instead of using too much religion in his international diplomacy using TOO LITTLE - especially in the context of Christian Latin America and Russia, even secular Christian France?

[PhillipHer]

That's tangential. The question stands. Where are the Muslim religious leaders marching for better treatment of the minorities in their midst, etc. Where are the unselfish actions (unselfish in not directed at helping Muslims and especially Arabs). Heck, how about the treatment of women?


Oh, and yes, I certainly believe that, objectively, western "Judeo-Christian" values are flat out better (promote a more productive, happier world) than the values we see as the standard in the Islamic world.