[Sliliashdes]

It cant because Iraq can not maintain it soverign right. I wish it was working, so Arab people could have a strong argument that democracy would work if it was implemented right away at their states, but it is not. Iraq is like lebanon; neighbouring states want a piece of the cake, too. Most of candidates represent a neighbouring state. Most of iraqis vote on basis of religion factions and tribal chiefs. for example, looking at the current voting results, Sunnis only voted for ALawia and the same with Shias who voted for Malki. Secularists and "liberals" didnt have a chance. there are candidate who are buying their votes through the tribal chiefs, and this money comes from other states.. people currently talking about the indirect fake elections, etc.. this is ruining iraqis democracy. Arab people look at Iraq democracy and "thanks god" that they do not have a democratic system.

But...it is working.

[68AttendGem]

I think the problem here is that Iraq was not fully ready for democracy. Democracy needs conditions to be able to flourish while all things are not necessary a combination of them are needed like:A strong leadership, educated populous, reasonable secular population who don't just default along certain lines, stable economy, no interference from external bodies, good security, a just legal system, a common national identity, low corruption, denying candidates to run or people to vote for them....

Iraq doesn't have any of these, US involvement by default has weakened the leadership, Iraq didn't win back the country themselves the US army did. Iraq might become a solid democracy in future but for now all the factors above have left the Iraq democracy project in a mess.. Because people voted and there was a result announced does not make a successful election, candidates were refused or were unwilling to take part, this rejects certain communities to voice there opinion using the ballot box so the next step is to use other means...

[cajonnmu]

It cant because Iraq can not maintain it soverign right. I wish it was working, so Arab people could have a strong argument that democracy would work if it was implemented right away at their states, but it is not. Iraq is like lebanon; neighbouring states want a piece of the cake, too. Most of candidates represent a neighbouring state. Most of iraqis vote on basis of religion factions and tribal chiefs. for example, looking at the current voting results, Sunnis only voted for ALawia and the same with Shias who voted for Malki. Secularists and "liberals" didnt have a chance. there are candidate who are buying their votes through the tribal chiefs, and this money comes from other states.. people currently talking about the indirect fake elections, etc.. this is ruining iraqis democracy. Arab people look at Iraq democracy and "thanks god" that they do not have a democratic system.

Is the best objective a Benevolent Dictator ?

[TolleyBoymn]

Is the best objective a Benevolent Dictator ?

Yes. at least for now
and I believe it will happen,

[conurgenceDen]

I'm kind of new here, could you help me out, which part is the great achievement:
a death toll in the hundreds of thousands?
Millions displaced internally?
millions displaced externally?
trillions of dollars spent off budget helping sink our nation into an economic crisis not seen in decades?
thousands of American lives lost?
many more maimed?
...all against a country that was not a threat, did not attack us, and was not involved with planning to attack us.

Which is it?

DEMOCRACY!!!

[Roxanjbra]

But...it is working.

... for the US.

[markphata]

I think the problem here is that Iraq was not fully ready for democracy.

What are you people on about?

"DEMOCRACY, democracy, democracy, DeMoCrAcY..."

You haven't got that very "democracy" in the US, or UK, or Italy for that matter!

[RobsShow]

... for the US.

For the Iraqis. Its not perfect, but they are voting and abiding by the vote. Thats democracy.

[GSgCGxsF]

I think the problem here is that Iraq was not fully ready for democracy. Democracy needs conditions to be able to flourish while all things are not necessary a combination of them are needed like:A strong leadership, educated populous, reasonable secular population who don't just default along certain lines, stable economy, no interference from external bodies, good security, a just legal system, a common national identity, low corruption, denying candidates to run or people to vote for them....

Iraq doesn't have any of these, US involvement by default has weakened the leadership, Iraq didn't win back the country themselves the US army did. Iraq might become a solid democracy in future but for now all the factors above have left the Iraq democracy project in a mess.. Because people voted and there was a result announced does not make a successful election, candidates were refused or were unwilling to take part, this rejects certain communities to voice there opinion using the ballot box so the next step is to use other means...

An extremely good point. You can't just hold elections and go "hey you got a democracy pal!" There are set criteria for a democracy that it needs to flourish. I believe that although democracy is the best imperfect system of government (all systems are imperfect) you cannot just force down the throats of people you have to let the people fight for it themselves (ie: The American Revolution & French Revolution) but instead we fought for it in their place when they weren't even ready to accept it... Democracy in Iraq IS possible however it's going to cost us up the ass both in troops and in money (not to mention the time it's going to take... at least 20 years I'd say)

[cxddfrxc]

For the Iraqis. Its not perfect, but they are voting and abiding by the vote. Thats democracy.

Yeah! Screw water, electricity, jobs, housing, schools, medical care, life prospects! Who needs that? Surely, not Iraqis! All they needed was an opportunity to dip their finger into an inkpot, and for that a bunch of people from far-far-far away country came into their homes and trashed their country! And if Iraqis don't know they should be greatful for that, it's because they are not civilised yet.

Bravo!

Any wonder why more and more people around the world detest Americans?

[Prererularl]

For the Iraqis. Its not perfect, but they are voting and abiding by the vote. Thats democracy.

YOU HAVEN'T GOT DEMOCRACY IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY. Shouldn't you start with yourselves, or is it too logical for you?

[SOgLak]

YOU HAVEN'T GOT DEMOCRACY IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY. Shouldn't you start with yourselves, or is it too logical for you?

Quite true our government is a republic but it is still democratically elected (except for Bush in 2000... that Florida shit was fucked up and illegal) however the recent Citizens United Supreme Court Case (I believe it was 3 weeks ago or so) has brought great dismay to me and my peers. The court case allows large corporations to spend unlimited amounts on ads to sponsor a candidate... I don't need to elaborate on how this is bad for America. (Basically corporations can now pump as much propaganda into our media as they like and it's totally legal... and by corporations I mean ALL corporations so for example Japanese Honda can now influence our politics... do you see the Pandora's box that's been opened?) However I have full confidence that within a few years it'll be revoked since it won by a very close vote (5-4) and once popular opposition kicks up congress will have to act.

[viawbambutt]

I think this elections proves that democracy would never work in Arab states, or at least in the next 20 years or more.

democratic lebanon and Iraq are good examples of this.

in lebanon, we saw how Hariri's son took the "Sunni throne" of his father..waleed janbalt inherting the "Drowz throne" from his father Kamal, etc

the press of leb. are controlled by politicians.. and they basically cant criticized Hezbollah, for example. etc

Iraq is very similar. its now being shared politically by neighbouring states. Candidates campaigns were financed by syria, iran, saudi, kuwait, turkey, U.S.?, etc
same thing with freedom of press, religion factions etc... iraqis had the right to vote just in theory. most of campaigns were based on religion factions. iraqis votes to their tribal and religion cheifs.. there is no sense of nationalism like before. these elections forgot about the high unemployment rates, the growing number of the poor, the wide gap between poor and high class, the dark-aged hospitals, absence of clear water, absence of electricity in some places... the candidate dont suffer from this shitty iraqi life cos they have their own well-equipped neighbourhood at the green zone. it is just a shame to compare iraq before war and now. and this elections just neglect what normal iraqis citizen suffer from. one example, is the growing numbers of iraqi sex traffickers to neighbouring states, who use iraqi girls for prostitution etc.

iraq and lebanon democracies are a big LIE...and now kuwait might be the future of arab-democray, if it dont fail or is failing.

Come on Sami, don´t spoil the kids enthusiams with something ludicrous as reality.

[CoallyPax]

Sure, I'll give you a helping hand, since you're are "kind of new here".



The vast majority of which was at the hands of their own people. The only thing that kept them in line was a psychopathic mass-murderer of a tyrant in Saddam Hussein. His ability to keep the populous in such fear as to over-ride their desire to kill each other isn't really something to advocate. You don't favor Saddam and his tactics, do you?



This was happening before we went in.



So was this.



Not trillions, plural. Now if you want to talk about real costs lets talk about how much medicare and medicade costs. Compared to those Iraq is just a drop in the bucket.



The number that has been lost in 8 years is actually quite commendable. Iraq seems to be slowly showing itself worthy of our sacrifices. I can't say the same for Afghanistan. I will say that nation building is not a good policy.



See above.



I bet you are 100% on your football picks on Monday night.

Now isn´t that a case of the blind offering to lead someone he believes to be blind too ?

[kneexyFreedly]

YOU HAVEN'T GOT DEMOCRACY IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY. Shouldn't you start with yourselves, or is it too logical for you?

Oh Alma, when will you start to grow up.

[Gymnarnemia]

I think the problem here is that Iraq was not fully ready for democracy. Democracy needs conditions to be able to flourish while all things are not necessary a combination of them are needed like:A strong leadership, educated populous, reasonable secular population who don't just default along certain lines, stable economy, no interference from external bodies, good security, a just legal system, a common national identity, low corruption, denying candidates to run or people to vote for them....

cowboy, if they HAD all that, they'd be a democracy.


Iraq doesn't have any of these, US involvement by default has weakened the leadership, Iraq didn't win back the country themselves the US army did. hummm, not really. Yes the US pacified the country by and large but keeping it that way, is their job. Leadership will arise, Saddam was out so there was no leadership to weaken, because he didn't allow any other but himself...it had to flourish.

I'd say the taking and holding of Basra was a major turning point, no one thought malikci would hold it but they did.

Iraq might become a solid democracy in future but for now all the factors above have left the Iraq democracy project in a mess.. Because people voted and there was a result announced does not make a successful election, candidates were refused or were unwilling to take part, this rejects certain communities to voice there opinion using the ballot box so the next step is to use other means... Its always a mess when it all starts out. The continental congress had many many advantages the iraqi's don't, but they struggled too, you think it was easy for them?

[cwgwowcom]

Yes. But till when Iraqi democracy would be protected by the U.S.? if we look at all the killing and deaths, etc in the past, its been done by neighbouring states who are more interested in killing the iraqi democratic experience more than fighting the U.S. The idea of forcing democracy scares those states, and their is a regional agreement on fighting this democracy. But lately they have realized that they cant kill this experience, but they are able of ruining it through its political process since the U.S. protection wont last long.

there would be this "arab individual virus".. iraq is still a society based on tribalism and religion.. and the illiterate rates are high..and its not easy for an iraqi leader to leave office jus because he finished his term...even if he was pure democratic, it would be hard to use governmental money to finance his campaign, buy votes, or control the press to support him and compete against the other candidates who are supported politically, financially etc by neighbouring states. someone would probly reform the constitution so he could stay longer, or all neigbouring states would agree on someone maybe like saddam or whoever they can all agree on, then make him rule iraq, etcc... or from the army etc

Algeria, sudan, and palestine democratic transofrmation was killed harshly in its begining..and transformed to a worser systems. those experiences and the iraq experience made ppl. afraid from the idea of "voting". would you think that iraq democratic experience be the same?

we shall see. I understand and do not underestimate the issues at hand.


yes. this is what they said in the news during the lebanon elections a year ago, and now they say the same thing about iraq.
I don't care what anyone in the news said, and when. When you have the 3 major offices apportioned according to religious sects that aint no democracy. Allowing it was a vacuous attempt at disengagement.

[Tusanoc]

Now isn´t that a case of the blind offering to lead someone he believes to be blind too ?

If you have a point to make, make it. Was something I wrote not factual? Please let me know, I don't want to have made a mistake or be uninformed.

[Tinasblue]

I think this elections proves that democracy would never work in Arab states, or at least in the next 20 years or more.

Okay, so English is your third language, so may be we are having a "miscommunicating" problem.

democratic lebanon and Iraq are good examples of this.

in lebanon, we saw how Hariri's son took the "Sunni throne" of his father..waleed janbalt inherting the "Drowz throne" from his father Kamal, etc

the press of leb. are controlled by politicians.. and they basically cant criticized Hezbollah, for example. etc Lebanon could have been a democratic shinning light, but then the Iranians (Hezbollah) stepped in the game and well we see what has happened because of the fanatics.

Iraq is very similar. its now being shared politically by neighbouring states. Candidates campaigns were financed by syria, iran, saudi, kuwait, turkey, U.S.?, etc same thing with freedom of press, religion factions etc... iraqis had the right to vote just in theory. most of campaigns were based on religion factions. iraqis votes to their tribal and religion cheifs.. there is no sense of nationalism like before. Yea, I know. Its like here in America. There is no sense of nationalism. Campaigns are financed by special interests groups and the press is in the tank for either the unions or their religious masters. Americans vote for the party leaders or who their minister in church tells them to. Sarcasm alert!

these elections forgot about the high unemployment rates, the growing number of the poor, the wide gap between poor and high class, the dark-aged hospitals, absence of clear water, absence of electricity in some places... the candidate dont suffer from this shitty iraqi life cos they have their own well-equipped neighbourhood at the green zone. it is just a shame to compare iraq before war and now. and this elections just neglect what normal iraqis citizen suffer from. Yes, unemployment is high, yet Iraq is one of the fastest growing economies in the region. Personally, I'd rather live free in shitty conditions, than live under oppression in comfy conditions.

one example, is the growing numbers of iraqi sex traffickers to neighbouring states, who use iraqi girls for prostitution etc. This is a problem but is not surprising. The same thing has happened in Eastern Europe and Southeast Asia.

iraq and lebanon democracies are a big LIE...and now kuwait might be the future of arab-democray, if it dont fail or is failing. Ah no. While Lebanon is problematic due to Iran and its strategic location, Iraq has the possibility of a bright future. We would all be fools if we thought or demanded that democracy take on the shape and style we are used to here in the West. Bush is a hero and a liberator in the eye's of Iraqis and many Muslims the world over. Obama is seen as a weak man-child out of his depth and in need of a clue.

tashi deleks,

M

[sportsbettinge]

Yeah! Screw water, electricity, jobs, housing, schools, medical care, life prospects! Who needs that? Surely, not Iraqis! All they needed was an opportunity to dip their finger into an inkpot, and for that a bunch of people from far-far-far away country came into their homes and trashed their country! And if Iraqis don't know they should be greatful for that, it's because they are not civilised yet.

Bravo!

Any wonder why more and more people around the world detest Americans?

So you agree then that democracy is working?