[NeroASERCH]

aravindhan and lamby!

My point is, addressing them SC/harijan is civilized. I think gandhi did call them harijans and I am not sure who first called them SC. That point is well taken

Why an ex ias officer have the pleasrue of using such SLURS here???

Have you read other articles of him about

A hidden call for united global Hindu awakening!
V SUNDARAM

'Hindus of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your self-adorned chains'

Thanks to the declared Congress policy of pseudo-secularism after independence, a policy which gives a special and extraordinary status above the laws of India to the so-called religious minorities and only a third-class status to the Hindu majority. The Hindus have been reduced to a hopeless position of Plebeians versus the Muslim and Christian Patricians, to a position of serfs versus the Muslim and Christian lords and to a position of journeymen versus the Muslim and Christian guild masters. Behind this all looms is Congress president Sonia Gandhi. To cite only one telling example, in Arjun Singh she has a pan-Islamic HRD Minister who is committed to the virulent philosophy of not allowing any reference to things and matters Hindu in all the NCERT text books.

Amidst this encircling and enlarging pseudo-secular and pan-Islamic gloom, there comes the statement from Sri Ashok Pande, chairman of the Hindu Personal Law Board from Lucknow. He has announced a cash reward of Rs 101 crores for the person who beheads painter Maqbool Fida Hussain who has made a nude painting of Bharat Mata, apart from making objectionable portraits of Hindu Gods and Goddesses. He has added: 'I will give Rs 101 crores to anyone who beheads the painter, but if this supari is accepted by Haji Yakub Qureshi, the UP Minister, who has made a similar announcement for the head of a Danish cartoonist, then the reward amount will be an additional Rs.51 crores'. By his 'bold' and 'no-less heroic' statement, he has made it clear to that Minister of Mulayam Singh Yadav's government Haji Yakub Qureshi and all others cast in the same mould that the silent and tolerant Hindus of India can no longer be treated as heads of sheep and cattle who can be dispersed at will by the threats of Muslim marauders, in secret or open collaboration with all the pseudo-secular political parties in India.

Yet another warrior who has heroically attempted to beat the terrorist record of Haji Yakub Qureshi is Jashubhai Patel from Gujarat. He has announced an award of one kg gold to anyone who would 'gouge' out the eyes and cut out the right hand thumb of MF Hussain for having blasphemously painted Hindu Gods and Goddesses and Bharat Mata in an obscene manner.

No one can endorse the lawless stand taken by these two emotionally upset Hindu leaders. At the same time it cannot be denied that the Hindus of India owe a deep debt of gratitude to Ashok Pande and Jashubhai Patel for creating a climate of awakening and fearlessness among the emotionally battered and shattered Hindus all over the world. This message will surely be taken as the beginning of a moral fight for right against all sorts of terrorism patronised, nurtured and nursed by all the pseudo-secular elements in India and the world. Terrorism is like a tiger. We cannot control it by attempting to climb from its back. By doing so, we will only end up by being in its mouth. Terrorism must be countered by moral courage all the time and physical courage only for the purpose of self-protection whenever and wherever necessary.

I am saddened by the political theory accepted by the UPA government which views all acts of anti-national Muslim terrorism as 'secular' and all acts of heroism and bravery in self-defence by the Hindus as 'communal', 'obscurantist' and 'superstitious'. Thanks to men like Arjun Singh, Ram Vilas Paswan, Lallu Prasad Yadav, Sonia Gandhi and the like, we are indeed living in very civilised times! -deleted-

[LottiFurmann]

It is because they have been called parayan and parachy, they are NOT PROUD of being a FILTHY HINDU!

I would not use the word "Filthy" for obvious reasons, but I agree with your general assessment.

On the main topic, one can contrast Periyar's use of rationalism to oppose casteism - necessarily involving trying to dismantle Hinduism - with Narayana Guru's "Ezhava Shiva" approach - involving trying to reform Hinduism. Neither is wrong in itself, but one must also keep in mind that the approach of reforming Hinduism from within has been tried before in Tamil Nadu. Ramanuja's attempted anti-casteist "Vainavam" is perhaps the best example, but there are others. None of them proved sustainable: a few generations after the founder's death, people went back to their old practices and prejudices. I also wonder how suited the "Ezhava Shiva" approach is to being applied to the emancipation of not just one relatively cohesive caste, but a broad range of castes which also had their own issues as between themselves.

I do not know how things were in Tiruvallikeni in the 1950s and how much they have changed now, but coming as I do from rural Thanjavur, I find it very hard to understand how people can say Periyar's movement was a failure. As a fairly orthodox Hindu myself, I find Periyar's anti-Hinduistic polemic very painful, and I simply cannot agree with his agenda of dismantling Hinduism. But it changed the lives of so many for the better that it cannot be condemned. I do feel that Periyar has shaken Tamil Hinduism out of its complacency sufficiently that it is now actually capable of ridding itself of its uglier sides. I would quite like that to happen. Unfortunately, I don't think people like V. Sundaram are particularly helping us move in that direction.

[Paul Bunyan]

I am not a supporter of periyaar and I never ever read his books.

K V criticism about EVR should definitely be appreciated.

But I dont understand why Sundaram needs KV to talk about "periyaarana"???

Why cant he take the "periyaarana" and crticize it???

He can himself comment on that BOOK!

He does not have to USE a young ignorant SC to strengthen his ideas.

Tell me why does he do that??????

Go through his other articles about great kshatriyaas part 1, part 2, part 3. You will get a better picture about this sympathizer, Sundaram!

[radikal]

Now he is talking about intellectual Kshatriya!!!!


An intellectual Kshatriya-III!

An intellectual Kshatriya - II

An intellectual Kshatriya - I


http://newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06marsun.htm

How would you defend, if I say, Sundaram cares more about Hindus (may be the Kshatriyass) rather than Indians???

he is a proud Hindu rather than an Indian!

[Slonopotam845]

I would not use the word "Filthy" for obvious reasons, but I agree with your general assessment

To me filthy is not as bad as addressing people as parayan and parachy as our Sundaram does (of course from EVR's book).

You cant realize that becuase you are not the one who belongs to that category. You missed your chance to enjoy that "degree" in the holy Hinduism!

[PhillipHer]

Go through his other articles about great kshatriyaas part 1, part 2, part 3. You will get a better picture about this sympathizer, Sundaram!

Oh, people like Sundaram are doing a far better job of destroying Hinduism than Periyar ever did. One doesn't really need to read very much by them to realise that.

You cant realize that becuase you are not the one who belongs to that category. You missed your chance to enjoy that "degree" in the holy Hinduism!

This is, of course, a very valid point which is well taken. It's stupid to comment on something one hasn't experienced. Time to shut up!

[brraverishhh]

aravindhan: Good to see you back to inject some sanity here. You are right. You should have lived in Thanjavur district in the 40s and 50s to know what it was like for a dalit, called ADs (Adi dravidas). I lived in Tanjore dt during the 40s and 50s. I saw a lot I did not like. The ADs were not allowed to wear a veshti or sandals. They had to be seen in loin cloth. If you touched them you had to take a shower drenching your head and soak your clothing in water. They were not allowed to go to school. They were not allowed to drink from the well used by other castes. If they wanted water they had to drink from their cupped hands while the upper caste man/woman poured water. If they went to a tea stall they had a separate counter where they had to clean the glass tumblers they used themselves. They were not allowed to enter temples. That was what EVR was fighting against and he succeeded to some extent. Some of his tactics were unacceptable. As you said cleansing Hinduism from within was not successful. C.P.Ramasamy Ayyar and Rajaji tried and did not have much success.

People who post here are probably in their 20s and 30s and would not know anything about the Tanjore of the 40s and 50s. They are also probably city bred.

Please visit this thread often to enlighten people. This thread reminds me of equal opportunity and affirmative action in the US which was opposed by whites initially. Remember John Kennedy sending federal troupes to get a black admitted into a college in the south. It has been 40 years and now you see more blacks,hispanics and native Americans in the work force. Of course, the unintended beneficiaries are Indians, Pakistanis and othe Asians.

I very rarely participate in this section for a number of reasons. I hope you continue to visit this section.

[HedgeYourBets]

RajRaj sir thanks for your posts. It surely tells us that we are living in a different world today.
One of the things about the movement IMO that changed the way we look at other people beyond their affiliations is the change of our names. Its only in Tamilnadu, we have initials of our dad’s name instead of the traditional caste name as a surname. No one for example with a list of names can have preconceived notions without even looking at them. Sure things have changed, but there is a long way to go yet.
The caste system is very powerful and crucial to the existence of Hinduism and may be that’s the reason why people with extreme feelings don’t want to let it go, Survival instincts I guess. Most of the civilizations that is tagged as ‘One of the Great’ all had slavery. It seems like a staple for a civilization to flourish. As you have said yourself, Americans not long had slavery. And Indian civilization is not very different. But the main difference is that we had ‘UNTOUCHABILITY’.
Even today Rice’s and Powell’s rise to power is considered as an achievement to the African-American community. Much news is made when an A-A does something that is done by their community for the first time something similar to what happened when R K Narayan was made the President.
I don’t know much about EVR, so cannot comment about that.

[Fegasderty]

People who post here are probably in their 20s and 30s and would not know anything about the Tanjore of the 40s and 50s. They are also probably city bred.

Yes, you are partially correct. But we also know what is happening in Keeripatti and Pappapatti panchayat elections. Change, if at all, is very slow in coming.

I am not a fan of Periyar, but a look at the post-independence history of Indian states shows that the Dravidian movement, with strong roots in the DK, played a major role in the revival of Tamil identity. Even today, the central government knows that it cannot arbitrarily put up milestones on National Highways in Hindi in Tamilnadu without strong opposition from the state government. We know that a Gujarat like situation can never happen in Tamilnadu and extremist religious organisations can never take root in Tamilnadu. We owe all this to the dravidian movement.

As for reform from within Hinduism, it could have been tried but what is the use? This religion is founded on casteism. What did Gandhi finally achieve? Look at Ambetkar's life! The man was so frustrated by repeated failures to gain rights for the oppressed class, that he converted to Buddhism, along with his followers. And an entire village in Tamilnadu converted to Islam, after trying in vain to gain access to a temple.

Even today Rice’s and Powell’s rise to power is considered as an achievement to the African-American community.

An achievement indeed! But did you know that Powell was a front-runner for Republican candidacy in the 1996 elections against Clinton? And he withdrew from the race, since he got repeated threats from racial extremists that his family would be harmed if he became a presidential candidate. So much for equal oppurtunity!!

[PhillipHer]

aravindhan: Good to see you back to inject some sanity here. You are right. They were not allowed to go to school. They were not allowed to drink from the well used by other castes. If they wanted water they had to drink from their cupped hands while the upper caste man/woman poured water. If they went to a tea stall they had a separate counter where they had to clean the glass tumblers they used themselves. They were not allowed to enter temples. That was what EVR was fighting against and he succeeded to some extent.

I feel bad for Venkatesan for coming up with an unfair conclusion!

nenju porukkudhillaiyE
nenju porukkudhillaiyE
intha nilaiketta manidhanai ninainthu vittaal

[HedgeYourBets]

Originally Posted by stranger You cant realize that becuase you are not the one who belongs to that category. You missed your chance to enjoy that "degree" in the holy Hinduism!

This is, of course, a very valid point which is well taken. It's stupid to comment on something one hasn't experienced. Aravindhan!

I must admit, I am in your boat. But I have tried my level best to understand how would it be like if I were born as an SC and afraid of telling my caste everywhere! Always scared that someone will say I belong to such and such when others are proudly claiming that I am a Kshatriya. It is terrible I think. I could not quite get it till now! I know I never will.

[Peptobismol]

I did do a google search on this book (written by this kid), Sundaram quotes, but not much luck so far!

Please help me, AR if you can!

Stranger, will keep you posted if indeed this book has been published.

[softy54534]

That was what EVR was fighting against and he succeeded to some extent.

Sadly, the man who fought for the opressed became the common enemy for one and all.

rajraj, your flashback reminded me very much of the doings of our Indian forefathers in Malaya as told by my grandma. Indians were discriminated against by Indians and hardly by the British!! No matter how badly they treated one another, they all still banded togather to marginalise the lower caste people.

Sad but true!

[MannoFr]

I think, without being unduly judgemental, this is one of the times when the means become just as important as the ends.

While the ends were definitely noble, the means adopted may have been far from ideal, and that is why this whole fanatically pro EVR and anti-EVR factions have emerged!

I think all sane and decent individuals today would agree whole-heartedly that Periyar's aim of redressing the social injustice meted out to certain sections of society is definitely laduable. Where many balk is the means he has adopted.

No doubt, he thought himself justified in reversing the whole social setup, more to attain the rightful balance, but an eye for an eye is not the best means to bring about social equality!!!

Oh yes, in the end, everyone might be left with just one eye, and in that sense there could be equality, but at what cost?

Which is why, the means are just as important as the ends.

[Peptobismol]

No doubt, he thought himself justified in reversing the whole social setup, more to attain the rightful balance, but an eye for an eye is not the best means to bring about social equality!!!
Oh yes, in the end, everyone might be left with just one eye, and in that sense there could be equality, but at what cost?
Which is why, the means are just as important as the ends.

My sentiments exactly Badri!

[PhillipHer]

An achievement indeed! But did you know that Powell was a front-runner for Republican candidacy in the 1996 elections against Clinton? And he withdrew from the race, since he got repeated threats from racial extremists that his family would be harmed if he became a presidential candidate. So much for equal oppurtunity!!

Agreed, it will take a long long time for an African-American to become US President.
I remember reading a story when I was in 4th standard about Lord Buddha. In the story a lower caste shepherd boy helps Lord Buddha by milking his goat straight to the mouth of unconscious Buddha. Once recovered from exhaustion Buddha touches the boy and thanks him. I think the story had been in the book to explain the greatness of Buddha (Touching an untouchable).
This incident if true had happened couple of 1000 yrs before now. I can’t think of any other practice that such a long continuity. May be Christianity and Judaism has, but those practices also have undergone some changes. Even the Chinese and Japanese imperialism has come to an end. Buddhism was founded in India and how many Indians are Buddhists?
Why did not Buddhism flourish in India? Is it because there was/is no room to follow the caste system in that religion?

Mostly everybody agrees that the caste system is not very acceptable in today’s world.
Do you think we can root out a system which has been practiced for ages without any discontinuity by peaceful non violent protest? Until and unless the movement is radical we can never hope to root out the system.
Does anyone here believe that the government is not going to build a dam because Medha Patker is on an indefinite hunger strike?

[softy54534]

dsath,kannan: It took more than 180 years for a catholic,John Kennedy, to become president of the US. People did not think a catholic could win. But, the democratic party had the courage to let him contest. It will be a long time before an African American occupies the White House. It will happen.

[MannoFr]

Good to hear this boy's story, Indian.......
The price tat ppl. of TN r paying for having chosen a wrong leader/role model....!
Unftly it may take much too long b4 ther r more youth like him w/ this awakening!

[NeroASERCH]

-removing repeated post-

[LottiFurmann]

Here are a few pearls from 'Periyarana' cited by Venkatesan in his book:

'For more than 40 years... Guys, I think the above was overlooked!! :P