Romanization question
 

So, I had this from my judo instructor: mate or matte? We've seen it both ways. Maita or maitta? I think I've only seen the latter. I've also seen ito and itto. What's the rule for two Ts or one? My vague understanding is that Japanese sound constructs always end in a vowel so the two consonant spelling makes no sense to me.

Richard/Oroshi? Anyone? Bueller?

http://www.studyjapanese.org/content/view/208/49
(listen to the sound bites)

Written in the phonetic Japanese alphabet (katakana/hiragana), a small (tsu) character preceding the consonant sound denotes holding that consonant sound a little longer. Romanization rules usually convert this small tsu as a double consonant of the following sound. "Kite" and "kitte" are two completely different words.

Romanization rules evolve or are not consistently used, so you'll often see the double-consonant romanization rule mixed up for the same exact word.

From my less than kindergarten understanding of Japanese, it's matte, which is the informal form of matsu meaning to wait. Also, itto vs ito is a tricky one as both are valid words that you'd hear in kendo. Itto from my understanding can mean either "style" or "one thing". Ito means string or thread, which you will see used in tsuka ito, the wrap of a sword's tsuka. Can't help with the maitta vs maita as I'm unfamiliar with the word and not good enough to convert verbs into their base forms

Actually, I just worked it out. It's Maitte, command form of the verb maitsu meaning "rise". However just like mate and ito, maite is a valid word, it just doesn't make sense to use these words when talking about kendo

"Mate" means "pause" I believe, it's used in judo in the same way we use "yame" in kendo. I have no idea why they don't say "yame". "Maitta" means "I give up", it's what you say when your arms and legs are so wrapped up you have no way to tap.

待って matte

参った maitta - I guess you mean 'to be defeated'

By itto/ito you could be referring to a number of words.

This presents another problem as the 'o' sound could be long or short as well.

Ah, interesting. I normally swear and yell "stop" when that happens, an iminent fracture of one of my limbs tends to have a negative effect on my ability to speak japanese http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/smile.gif. In that case, it would be maitta yes, context is everything http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/smile.gif

This is exactly why I hate romaji. It's too confusing! From what I understand, there is also more than one type of romaji in use. That makes it even more confusing...

Kaoru

To be fair hiragana would have been just as confusing, and kanji is just painful all round for those of us who are just learning the language

Mate was used in Judo to stop all actions in training or matches with the understanding that they will resume. At the end, when the match was over, they would say "yame soremade". Over time, mate became the word of choice in Judo and I am not even sure if they say yame or simply "soremade" these days. I am a judoka but I do not know Japanese. My wife is Japanese and did some Judo. In writing, her choice would be "mate" and not "matte". She tried to explain the rules she follows about not repeating certain consonants in writing and I almost got a headache.

They just say soremade now if they say anything, or at least that's how it's done locally.

My Japanese is pretty darn rusty, but the little tsu there before the final "Te" sound indicates a doubling of the consonant. How I learned it in university was matte, back in first year, when we still bothered with romaji. Not that it matters, as transcription seldom works in another alphabet or syllabary. Korean's a pretty classic example of that. When I came here, it was Kimchi and Pusan, Taejon and Chonju. Now it's Gimchi (that one'll never catch on) Busan, Daejeon and Jeonju. Soon it will probably be Boosahn and even imagining a dash between every damn syllable, as is still done with names (eg: Boo-Sahn), isn't really much of a stretch. Which would bring it all in a circle, back to the days of Kim-Chee, etc.

IMO, it's like the Qur'an, Quran, Koran.... The original language is the only one that matters. So spelling it Mate or Matte or Matay or Mat-Tay or Mahtae.... what does it really matter in the end? It's all wrong. But close enough.

'Mate' is the imperative form of the verb 'Matsu' (machimasu = stop or wait). 'Matte' (with 2 ts) also derives from the same verb, but is not the imperative form, but the 'te' form. So, 'mate' is the correct word in this case. i.e., it is a command to stop. 'Matte' is a request.

Okay mate?

Whoops yeah it's 命令形

Okay, this drifts off subject but all this romaji, kanji, hiragana confusion has me asking - what do Japanese use for text message abbreviations? Is there yet another alphabet for LOL, BFF, OMG, WTF, etc?

emoticons are by far the most common form of abbreviation. http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/smile.gif

Because kanji carry semantic meaning by themselves, the kanji themselves can become abbreviations. For example, in Japanese, the All Japan Kendo Federation (AJKF) is Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei (ZNKR), or abbreviated in Japanese "ZenKenRen" 全剣連. So, if I wanted to do LOL in Japanese, I'd just write 笑, the kanji for laughter. Or, because romaji is used, I could just write "w" for "warau" (laugh). As Alex notes, emoticons are also used heavily, as well as symbols.

?? - doubt, question, WTF
!! - surprise, shock, OMG
... - hesitation, doubtful or pointed silence

They are less used these days in email due to the ubiquitousness of graphic emoticons on phones and emails programs, but the Japanese also devised extremely clever and expressive emoticons. For example,

(^^) - smiling
(Ｔ＿Ｔ） - crying
(ﾟﾛﾟ; ) - shock
p(^^)q - cheering
(^^)b - thumbs up

So confused. Are they pronounced differently?

The single T is pronounced as you'd expect, ma-te, but the double T is pronounced mat-te - if you can make sense of my attempt at phonetics.

Although I'm no expert, several websites I've read that attempt to explain Japanese say that the double consonant means you should pronounce the consonant for roughly double the length of a single consonant. An example quoted from here Double consonants

A double (geminate) consonsant, for example the kk in ikkentobi ("one-space jump"), indicates that the consonant is double length. This is indicated by doubling the consonant, except for sh (sh→ssh), ch (ch→tch), and ts (ts→tts).

Start to say the consonant, then stop the flow of air, pause for one syllable, and then finish saying the consonant. There are several sites that explain double consonants in this way or something similar. Perhaps a more scholarly example might be foundhere? b) There is a general rule that double consonants and double vowels do not have their English equivalents. Both are held for longer, and for roughly twice the articulation of single consonants or vowels. Japanese has numerous minimal pairs where the distinction is made by the opposing of single or double sounds. The distinction is recognised in the kana system, as one would expect.