[poonnassunlix]

I think HOOM just has a LOT of LONG songs to absorb. And unlike most of Ys's long tunes, the production on some of the HOOM songs is spare/toned-down. To me as a listener, that made it harder in some ways to pay attention to the longer songs. I love Baby Birch, but I never listen to it because that whole first long section goes on for a long time without much variation in the production. If I do get in a Baby Birch mood, I usually listen to the first part for a minute or so then skip forward to the first "chorus." I'm with it from there on out. Maybe I'm just too attention-deficit, or maybe the way Ys was produced trained me to be fine with long songs as long as there are lots of sonic bells and whistles to marvel at at every turn.

I think what Kari said about the bitterness in HOOM vs. the innocence/wonder of Ys is right on target. HOOM also just feels very...I don't know, earthy? Down to earth? Rooted? Whereas Ys has the whole far-away land, mythic thing going on. The (wonderful) ways in which the two records are different made me love Joanna even more, if that's possible.

[Gedominew]

I think the sparseness and use of space in Baby Birch makes the ultimate payoff even more satisfying, but I can see how it's a "mood only" song.

[poonnassunlix]

I think the sparseness and use of space in Baby Birch makes the ultimate payoff even more satisfying.

Yeah, I definitely think that's what she was going for, in how she chose to produce/arrange it.

One thing I will say about Joanna: she never stops challenging your notions about what a song "should" be, or about what makes for successful song structure/production/etc.

[Grainiary]

I don't see how songs like "Have One On Me," "In California," or "Soft as Chalk" could be described has not having much melody. "In California" in particular has one of the most extraordinarily beautiful melodies I've heard, replete as it is with otherworldly chord voicings and spine-tingling key changes.

[Gedominew]

Right. I try to avoid being a megafan like I was about Tori and get defensive when people don't like her, but the "not much melody" criticism holds zero water with me because it is patently untrue. Is her structure occasionally meandering (for lack of a much better, more accurate word)? Yes. Is her music full of conventional pop hooks and bells and whistles? No. But melody?? Melody she has.

[ASSESTYTEAH]

Her melodies are expansive, often exploratory, but more focused than you might initially think. I definitely think when I first heard some of her songs, from both this album and from Ys, they sounded really loose and, like Kari says, meandering (due to length, I suppose.) But when you study them and spend more time with them, there are loads of nice repeated phrases, surprising twists and turns, and variations on the song's main melody.

[Anykeylo]

I don't see how songs like "Have One On Me," "In California," or "Soft as Chalk" could be described has not having much melody. "In California" in particular has one of the most extraordinarily beautiful melodies I've heard, replete as it is with otherworldly chord voicings and spine-tingling key changes.

I get those songs stuck in my head all the time! So they must have a melody. I mean what else am I singing under my breath without realizing it when I'm walking down the street, making passersby think I am a crazy person quite possibly. "CUCKOO-OO-OO-OO! AH-AH-AH-AH! AH-AH-AH-AH!"

Plus Good Intentions Paving Company is, in its own way, pretty much a pop song. I mean this as a compliment.

[ambientambien]

I've had one little fragment of Have One on Me (the song) stuck in my head for over a week. No idea why, as I haven't actually listened to the song in a while. Just these lyrics over and over: "as if god himself spat like a cornered rat // i really want you to do this for me, will you have one on me?" Over and over and over and over.

[Smittoh]

Music without much melody? OKAY. I can deal with criticisms of her music (not everyone has the attention span/connects to her storytelling, I get it), but that is just wayyyy off. Her music is nothing BUT melody. Melodies on top of melodies on top of melodies.

I don't think attention span is the issue...because all of the songs I said I loved are pretty long. It's what's going on in the song (or in this case, not going on) is what I have a problem with. The biggest offender of this that I can recall is Baby Birch. I don't find the payoff worth sitting through that song at all. It's just torture. I don't care on any level what's going on in that song...and she doesn't really try to make me care. That's her right as an artist. She can make long songs that don't have much of anything going on in them sonically, but I as a listener won't sit through them.

As far as the melody comment, I was generalizing a bit. But there are some songs on HOOM (hello Baby Birch, again) that don't seem to have any kind of melody. I guess what I really wanted to say: there are no interesting melodies that make me want to listen again. I do remember when I listened to HOOM months ago that there are some very pretty melodies there, but they were stuck in these 10 minute songs and the interesting bits would usually be less than a minute long. Life's too short for that. Maybe if I knew her in real life I'd care what she went on about for 10 minutes, but I don't so I just listen to something I enjoy.

Melodies on top of melodies on top of melodies? I can't hear it. Maybe all the melodies are canceling each other out?

Also - it's not just the Pitchfork crowd. She's widely considered by critics to be one of the best musicians working today, and she sells out places like the Sydney Opera House and Royal Albert Hall. I know it's a nitpicky thing to say, but this isn't some obscure musician that no one has ever heard of. Granted, she got a lot of attention through Pitchfork, but what well respected indie musician hasn't? I don't put much stock into what the critics say. I can think for myself fine, thank you very much. I highly doubt any of these critics listen to Joanna or any artist on a regular base.

And I'm not saying she isn't talented. She obviously is. It's just that most of her music doesn't interest me. The payoff isn't worth it for me.

[Anykeylo]

As far as the melody comment, I was generalizing a bit. But there are some songs on HOOM (hello Baby Birch, again) that don't seem to have any kind of melody.

??? I can hum/sing the melody to Baby Birch from memory right now.

[Smittoh]

^ That only means your brain filled in the dots because you've been listening to that song more than you should have.

Anyway, I just played it (well, the first couple of seconds) to see what you were talking about, and I just can't stand it. It has the worst 60s/70s sound.

[Anykeylo]

Sorry to keep harping at you (har har!) but I don't think harp was that common in the 60's/70's?

HooM definitely has a 70's feel at times but that is one of the things I like about it. Some of the tracks make me think of Kate Bush's The Kick Inside.

Maybe it helps that I was 30 feet from the stage for this:



and it was pretty magical. But as for melody, hear how each phrase climbs up, jumps up a couple of notes more, falters back down, moves back and forth a few notes, then falls back to where it began? I mean it is very, very, very slow at the beginning. Each phrase takes about 0:18 or so, in that live clip. But there is a definite vocal melody making up each of those long phrases. You just need to be patient with the song, it is slow but it has a very clear, identifiable melody.

[Anykeylo]

Also, as an anecdote: when the audience joins in on the handclaps aound the 6:00 mark in the clip above, I have never heard an audience so precise with their clapping. No one missed a beat, no one had crap rhythm, everyone clapped on the 4th and 6th beat of each measure as they should. It was freakish to experience in person. Everyone around me was clapping (I was too), everyone was doing it perfectly. I really think everyone in the room was 'with her' at that moment, everyone's attention was on the music and the performance.

[Smittoh]

I was talking more about her vocals when I said it sounded like it came from the 60s/70s. Although the harp doesn't really change anything for me.

And I really find the "emotion" she's trying to get through with her voice nauseating. I think the word is "wailing." It's really irritating to me. She seems to wake up in that clip three and a half minutes into the performance. I skipped to the six minute mark and had to stop. The vocal delivery, the instruments, the rhythm...none of it works for me here. Whereas I find Kingfisher to be perfect from beginning to end, I find this song the total opposite of that.

The only track that I remember reminding me of Kate Bush was Easy. But I haven't listened to most of the album for over three months, so there might be more.

[Anykeylo]

You don't need to necessarily justify why you don't like it. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you!

[Smittoh]

I know, but it's still interesting to think about it.

It certainly leaves more room for discussion, since at the end of the day, everything comes down to individual taste/preference.

[Gedominew]

I don't put much stock into what the critics say. I can think for myself fine, thank you very much. I highly doubt any of these critics listen to Joanna or any artist on a regular base.

And I'm not saying she isn't talented. She obviously is. It's just that most of her music doesn't interest me. The payoff isn't worth it for me.

I'm not asking you to put stock in what critics say. You think she's overrated and boring and that's fine. However, your post implied that there is a super tiny subset of people who think she's amazing, and that is not the case. She's reached much wider than the Pitchfork crowd.

I just completely disagree with your other statements (like Baby Birch having no melody which is just...???), so we'll leave it there.

ETA: Kollins, I agree about Good Intentions being a pop song. It is.

[Smittoh]

I'm not asking you to put stock in what critics say. You think she's overrated and boring and that's fine. However, your post implied that there is a super tiny subset of people who think she's amazing, and that is not the case. She's reached much wider than the Pitchfork crowd.

The Pitchfork comment had nothing to do with how wide her fan base is, though I can't see her having a large or diverse fan base either. If you listen to a lot of indie and Pitchfork-approved music, you're not in the majority. If Joanna became a huge success, I highly doubt Pitchfork would give her glowing reviews.

Also: Good Intentions Paving Co. is as far from pop as you can get. Unless by "pop" you mean something that people would listen to in the 1800s?

[ambientambien]

^ It comes the closest of all her songs to date to following a pop song structure. Verse, chorus, repeated hooks.

[Anykeylo]

I am so confused. You criticize the album for being too 1960's/1970's, then you say the song on there that is perhaps the most 1960's/1970's is 1800's? Good Intentions Paving Company is very classic folk-rock, with that hooky chorus, the piano-driven bassline, the layered vocals, etc.