[Searmoreibe]

Just for shits, what happens if she shows?

[Super-Luser]

probably a descendent

[pimbertiemoft]

Just for shits, what happens if she shows?

"Shits" would happen.

[imawlBoli]

one tv news have made a nice show, asking people on that street if they've ever seen her neighbour, asking some actors dressed in XVIII/XIX century dresses (they were making a show about Mozart), asking modern Bohm family, and they even hired a psychic to find her But a historian commented that miss Bohm was a german who moved to Bydgoszcz from Gorzow, which at this point was completely or almost completely german, so she wouldn't understand the announcement in papers, as she probably didn't know polish much. He was replied, however, that this lady in her 227 year life had plenty of time to finally learn polish.



and a little mistake: the lady was from Gorzow, but she moved to Bydgoszcz, so the event itself took place in Bydgoszcz.

[SnareeWer]

Polish govt wanting german land. Isn't it obvious from Heresson's post?

[Xavier_Spinner_Wheels]

Polish govt wanting german land. Isn't it obvious from Heresson's post?

Bydgoszcz belonged to Poland before ww2, although it had a big german minority. Polish gouverment has nothing to do with that.

Anyway, don't you have a shame to criticise the gouverment representing the nation of your polish forefathers?

[Piediahef]

Polish govt wanted to buy land found out that it was already owned by a German lady who's family was one of the folks driven out. Don't you think that if she had family, it'd collect this land in the 100 years between here disappearance and expulsions of germans from the city?

My family was German, tyvm. If they had wanted to be Polish, they would have moved to the south. Why? Entire south Prussia were prussian citizens of polish origin, speaking polish, having polish surnames etc. Your forefathers were Germans of polish origin, at best.

[cholleyhomeob]

Uh, Bromberg wasn't cleansed until after Stalin rolled through with the red army in '44. You've only had private property, by my reckoning since '89 at best and '92 at worst.

There are two mistakes in your post.
One is about private property: we've had private property in the communist Poland. Of course we did. There was much state property, collective property, but private property existed as well.
Secondly, you didn't get the point
The lady is missing since 1847 or so. So her probable german family had 100 years, until being possibly expelled in 1944/5, to claim the property.

And no, they were places in the cities that were primarily German, even at the turn of the century, and this includes Ortelsburg. Your own map proved this to be so. I'll concede that the southern part of OstPreuben in the countryside, particularly close to the Masurian lakes was predominantly Polish. You are aware that
1) even in those predominantly german cities there was a polish-speaking minority
2) german census counted people declaring knowledge of two languages, polish and german, as Germans automatically, which means the presence of polish language was even more common than this official map shows.
3) polish language was in decline there. 50 years earlier, the map would show more polish language, and 50 earlier even more. This was a quick process of adapting german language by people in the border regions due to the state policies.
4) it is very unlikely that a person with clear german ancestry would get a polish surname.

Also, I've provided you with the example of Jerzy Ollech, a polish pastor from Szczepankowo next to Szczytno / Ortelsburg, living in 1757-1820. And he undoubtly not only knew polish, but was in contact with polish intellectual elite of these days and was an admirer of polish literature. He's most likely your distant relative. The name fits, the geographical area fits precisely. You should get over it: your ancestors may have been Germans. They were Germans when they were living East Prussia for USA, Canada or wherever. But their own ancestors, living in the beginning of XIX century, were polish.

Szczepankowo is 12,5 km from Szczytno

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=p...5&spn=0,0&z=12

and, as the aforementioned map suggests, there are still some of your relatives living in Poland, as Ollech surname still shows up on the maps of polish surnames in this area.

[lammaredder]

He's most likely your distant relative. Maybe, I don't know. It's the wrong village from my immediate family which I've not posted here.

[TessUnsonia]

The village is close, but on the wrong side of Ortelsburg. My family lived about the same distance but to the east of the city.

[bredkumanfirst]

The village is close, but on the wrong side of Ortelsburg. My family lived about the same distance but to the east of the city.

So the distance between them would be only 18 km or so. Still looks like the same family.
Also, if your family lived 12,5 km east from Szczytno / Ortelsburg, they lived in a +75% polish territory, according to the previous map.

which, together with their polish surname, indicates clearly their polish origin.

[fetesiceWaist]

I don't claim they were Poles. I claim they were of polish origin, which makes you of polish origin as well. If someone is named Ol(l)ech, and comes from an area +75% polish-speaking, there's little chance he's not of polish origin. The same, all those 99% procent polish, 99% roman-catholic villages in eastern Poland don't want to even think they are of polish origin, even if their surnames have -uk or -ko endings, which most likely indicate ruthenian origin. The same is with many people coming from territories that were, at least once, polish: they are so strongly attached to their german identity that they ignore obvious fact that their ancestors were polish generations ago.

But why are you so sure they spoke german only? It's really doubtful, actually. They come from an area over 75% polish, and don't know any polish at all?

If I care this much, it is because it makes your ueberdeutsche revisionist political claims about Poles having to leave Silesia, western pomerania and Masuria silly.

[CibQueersejer]

Masuria is probably the poorest and least developed region in Poland, but it has nice lakes.

[MgpojuWy]

But why are you so sure they spoke german only? Because of what my grandfather and father have said, and they both knew them well. German. No Polish, just German. This is what I am trying and have been trying to tell you. They considered themselves to be German.

It's really doubtful, actually. They come from an area over 75% polish, and don't know any polish at all? The family, after the war scattered and lives primarily in Hamburg, etc. They did not go to Warsaw or behind the iron curtain, and nor did they stay. This to me says they all considered themselves German.

If I care this much, it is because it makes your ueberdeutsche revisionist political claims about Poles having to leave Silesia, western pomerania and Masuria silly. So the origin of one man, makes a stain on Polish heritage run clean? Seriously. I'm mad enough the Russians destroyed things, the poles are better than the Russians, and they should have simply said no.

[Franchise]

What you need to know is that changing the border today or exiling people living there would be similar to exiling Jews from israel back to Europe and Arab countries. I was waiting for this one. Polish people weren't exterminated in the holocaust unless they were Jews. Jewish people need a homeland.

I am not saying that Poland should not exist. I am saying that the lands that are German should be returned to Germany. This includes East Prussia and Silesia, lands that were only given to Poland because Stalin demanded that the border shift east.

Did you not catch the point I made about those eastern lands returning to Poland? I would be happy with the '19 borders including the corridor. Poland would be larger than she is now.

[Seisyvose]

Non-jewish losses of Poles reach 3 mln, so almost exactly the same as jewish, although the percentage is much smaller. Yes, I also believe poland had one of the highest losses due to the treachery of the Russians when they backstabbed you and seized all of eastern poland, which is yours and ought to have remained yours.

Nah, there are dozens of nations that go on without a state. And Palestinians weren't responsible for the Holocaust. Then you won't blink an eye when I say that Poles don't deserve a state. Wow. I can't believe you are saying that Jews should be pushed to the sea rather than having a homeland.

These lands were german. 60 years ago. We come back to the question why would Poland agree to give a gift of 1/3 of its territory, and what would happen to people living there. And one could ask the question, why someone who is a judenhess, would have any moral authority to claim land that is not rightfully theirs. I sincerely hope most poles don't think the way you do.

There's no chance of doing it, and, being offspring of people expelled from there, I tell you I don't really want to make major changes to the current ukrainian border. Nor to the western one.
It was 60 years ago, Ben. People who remember living in the lost territories are dieing. It makes absolutely no sense to open up old wounds. What you don't recognise is that the wound isn't going away just because Poland occupies it now. You don't respect Israel, so why should other nations respect Poland? Explain that one to me.

[seawolferr]

Then you won't blink an eye when I say that Poles don't deserve a state. Wow. I can't believe you are saying that Jews should be pushed to the sea rather than having a homeland.

I believe that existance of Israel is legitimate now, but wasn't 60 years ago.
Which is clear when you recall my words about that giving Germany back these lands would be like destroying Israel.

What you don't recognise is that the wound isn't going away just because Poland occupies it now. yes it is. If you amputate an arm, you don't have it, but the wound heals.

You are thinking about it as on an abstract subject, while it's about life of 15 or so mln people in Poland and milions in Germany as well. Almost no Germans want to take back these lands. And no Poles want it too. I don't know why you are so intent on destroying the peace in Europe, and ethnic cleansing of these lands. History happens. Flight / expulsion of Germans is history. And, unlike in the case of Palestinians, expulsed / fled Poles and Germans have found their new homes, integrated into the local society or created a new one. My grandparents and my grand-grandfather is buried in this land. U was brought up here. It is my home, not some city in Ukraine or eastern Poland.