[Lauramalina]

Push them into the sea.

[mashabox]

Firing rockets into towns is bad for children and other living things.

[RicyReetred]

Originally posted by Lancer
Firing rockets into towns is bad for children and other living things. So is smoking. They should really do something about that.

[NarhozNic]

One would think, that after, what?, 30?, 40?, 50? years of fighting, that both sides would have realized the futility of it. Hamas´ rockets wont make the israelis leave, and israel´s air strikes wont stop the rockets from flying. There is no need for speculation - it´s been proven over and over again. It´s like running against a wall - repeatedly.

Wouldnt it be smarter for israel, to try and buy the leaders ? Like, you know, give them a huge pension secretly, so that they calm down their people. And of course threatening with assassination should they not act upon contract. In Germany, we have a saying: ´sugar-bread and the whip´, meaning ´reward and punishment´ - thats how you get to cooperation.

And then of course, there needs to be done something about the causes. I mean Gaza is like a metropolis - it´s got about as many inhabitants as Hamburg - and is about the same size. Only that it gets shot off from the rest of the world like West-Berlin during the blockade from time to time. No-one goes there though, saying the people there should be proud as roman saying they are romans 2000 years ago when they say that they are gazaian. I can only imagine, that they feel left alone and bitter and frustrated. The wall in the west banks doesnt really help. When it was erected in Berlin, the whole world protested. Not so much this time. Apparently, even the (nazi) germans, who caused the biggest war ever and topped it all of with the holocaust, are better respected than they are. How would you feel ? (remembering some native american song: ´And even when Germany fell to your hands, you left them their pride, and you left them their lands...´)

When ´terrorists´ strike, they do it, because they have a reason. A reason of which most people may be ignorant, oblivious or even of contrary opinion. What matters tho is, that THEY believe in the reason. It is imperative to undestand that reason, and find ways to alliviate it. It should be realized on both sides, that the enemy is not always on the other side of the fence, but that those who give the cause for the ´evil-doers´ are most often located within the own camp. The palestiansians should really go after those rocketeers. Israel should offer (but not force upon them) help for this task. If taken prisoner (and that should always be top priority - to NOT kill them), they should be brought to Israeli hospitals, where those wounded by the rockets lay. To schools, looking into jewish childrens eyes and realize, that it freaking doesnt matter, that they are jewish. And they should talk to them: Why they thought there was no other way than launching rockets. What they can do, to lessen their urge to launch rockets. Short: Fight the hatred not the people.

This may all sound super-naive. To show you it´s not, i want to also point out the alternative: If reconcilliation wont be achieved in the near future, Israel is seriously running the risk of a second holocaust. As things are now, i bet, there are elements among the radical palestinisians (and their allies), willing and soon able to bring unprecendented horror to Israel´s cities. They cant be forced to stop. They need to be convinced they dont want to do that.

[Kuncher]

Originally posted by dannubis


and this is what is wrong with india. and with you as a person. The problem with you is that you don't have the stomach for what is sometimes necessary. Israel has put up with enough s*** for more than enough time to make this a warranted response.

When your enemy is firing rockets into civilian areas into your territory, and when that enemy is a state whose government is democratically elected, with the overwhelming majority voting for the current party in power, AND with the elections being certified fair by neutral observers (UN or EU, I forget which), then you are justified in retaliating against the state. The people share responsibility, as the government is one which THEY elected.

The objective of war is peace, whichever way it is achieved. If it takes overwhelming force to attain that objective, so be it.

[Badyalectlawl]

You know, aneeshm, when a people, decides to elect the way the palestinians did, then at least there is some probability, that there is a reason for it. Maybe look into it, instead of lethal prejudice ? Also remember, what your statement would mean for the US under Bush. Just as a sidenote, you know...

I know the two situations arent comparable 1:1 (there hardly ever is), but say the native americans: They raided cowboy towns or whatnot, because they felt they had a reason for it. Today, many people are aware of that reason and some call it a good one. Too late. That´s because people in the 19th century thought pretty much along the lines you just displayed here, aneeshm.

Had people back then rather thought along the lines of: ´hell, we are taking everything they need away from them - we shouldnt be surprised they are angry on us. Let´s talk, and see if we cant co-exist in a peaceful way...´- who knows how many lives would be saved and how much less bitterness would have emerged.

And just because retaliation might be ´justified´, it hardly ever is the smartest move. It will change nothing at all, except intensifying the conflict.

And absence of war is not peace. The first half of the 20th century in europe showed pretty well, what a ´peace´ is worth when it is solely based on force. So does the whole palestinesian mayhem.

The goal of war is to break the will of the adversary and make him succomb to your own - not peace (and there is even instances, i believe, where war was fought just for it´s own sake). Peace is when both sides respect and understand each other. War never achieved that. It is the period after the war, where peace must be established. It doesnt automatically come about after the signing of a peace-treaty. The way war supports peace is by its victims: When both sides look at the loss of lives and realize, that they both dont want that to happen again. Its much smarter to come to terms without all that and on equal grounds.

Politics shouldnt be a matter of ´stomachs´ but of brains. This is not some puberty contest - people die. Sometimes in agony, their guts all over the place. Or their brains. Sometimes their children watch them die like this (remember that horribe video, where a man bleeds to death, caught in a firefight between both sides, with his son in his arms). Or vice versa. This shouldnt continue, just because someone´s c*** is too small and decides by his stomach, that retaliation is justified. It never is btw, cause it doesnt change anything. It´s a stupid, thoughtless, reaction, purely stemming from emotions, often the same that caused the reason for revenge.

[ROYMANgo]

So, yeah, just got the news: 350 dead.
HAMAS-reaction: Guess, what ? They call for retaliation. It´s a great day for Israel, truely... The situation is much saver now. Bright, peaceful future ahead...

[mynaflzak]

Originally posted by Unimatrix11
So, yeah, just got the news: 350 dead. Where did you get this number? The latest I heard is ~200, with some more buried in the rubble.

HAMAS-reaction: Guess, what ? They call for retaliation. It´s a great day for Israel, truely... The situation is much saver now. Bright, peaceful future ahead...

You're talking as if the goal of an attack should be to scare the enemy enough to make them stop fighting. That doesn't work against a fanatic, patriotic and suicidal enemy. The goal is to kill them, taking minimum damage in return.

[FourEsters]

Jesus Christ would have actually done just that, Floyd.

EDIT: A rocket in this case is a sure sign someone is discontent, to say the least, with his situation. Changing the situation, instead of killing that someone, offers the only way to a permanent solution.

[Yb4bulVR]

Originally posted by Unimatrix11
EDIT: A rocket in this case is a sure sign someone is discontent, to say the least, with his situation. The situation in this case is the existance of Israel. I don't think you'll find many Israelis willing to change that though.

[Nzmoafzn]

Israel isn;t going to end Palestinian resistance militarily. It has been trying for 40 years and still hasn't done it. It can buy itself relative calm and low casualties for itself (those rockets from Gaza have killed a small number of civilians), but that is all it can get.

As for Gaza, either the Israelis take it back, and assume full responsibility for the civilian population's well being, or actually talk to Hamas and make a deal. This middle ground of trying to starve 1.5 million Palestinians so they turn on Hamas has failed, and was bound to fail.

[Accor$314]

Originally posted by GePap
or actually talk to Hamas and make a deal. Once Hamas shows some willingness to actually abide by a deal they might be more willing to. As it is now Hamas doesn't even keep to its cease fires.

[CathBraunn]

just so you get a perspective on who is the bad guy:
last week, Hamas rocket launches wounded several palestinian teenage girls who were later taken to treatment in Israeli hospitals.

this is a poker game

Hamas thought Israel wouldn't dare go on an operation with general elections coming in February, so they calculated they can up the violence level and get more concessions from Israel for a new truce agreement.

But they did it very violently and upped the pressure too much, leaving Israeli government no choise but to remind the Hamas of the power ratio between their organization, and IDF.

Egyptian leadership, notable not very pro-Israeli, has clearly stated that Hamas ignored their warnings and that basically they got what they had going.

Meanwhile, a brilliant tactical trick and the fact the operation was kept secret, lead to the fact that Hamas leaders were unprepared and almost all Hamas buildings hit were active and manned.

The palestinian reports shown in Israel talk of 200 casualties.

[maxfreemann]

Originally posted by David Floyd
...
No, what the Israelis want is for the VIOLENCE to be gone. Unfortunately, when someone is dropping rockets on civilians, you don't have ANY choice but to respond with violence.

To recap, the Israeli's want the violence gone, and are willing to confront violence with violence. The Palestinians want the Israelis gone, and are willing to murder civilians to try and make that happen, even though they know it won't work.

And there's even a question about which side is in the right? Well, the israelis successfully bombed the british out, so they gave the example. But that doesnt matter anymore today (this is not meant sarcastic - it really doesnt matter anymore).

I disagree with the statement though, that the only response to violence is violence. It would have been totally cool, if they struck on some new device this time. Sent the planes up. Those loud, threatening fighter-bombers. And then drop: Candy. That´s how the americans did it here. Candy-bombers. I mean they dropped millions of kilos of bombs on german cities during the war, killing millions, but after they candy-bombed Berlin during the blockade, at least the kids loved them (so they say - i wasnt born back then). If you make my kids happy, i sure dont hate you. If you make my kids starve, well, i might wanna set up a rocket launcher. If you kill my parents, i certainly will.

EDIT: Sirotnikov: I wont get into any discussion of who is the bad guy. If Isreal didnt kill teenage girls today, it was by blind luck. Let´s suppose they are all good guys and dont harm people for fun or for sadistic reasons. They do it, because they fight for the same things: Safety and wellbeing for them and their families. After all there´s only humans on each side.

[QbCp7LaZ]

Why don't you take the Gaza strip over, evict all the Pals and put them in Jordan? Right now, they are in two separate disconnected peices of land. Like East and West Pakistan. That can't last. Is not stable. plus wouldn't you rather have all that coastline for Israel?

[Arexytece]

Originally posted by GePap
Israel isn;t going to end Palestinian resistance militarily. It has been trying for 40 years and still hasn't done it. It can buy itself relative calm and low casualties for itself (those rockets from Gaza have killed a small number of civilians), but that is all it can get.

As for Gaza, either the Israelis take it back, and assume full responsibility for the civilian population's well being, or actually talk to Hamas and make a deal. This middle ground of trying to starve 1.5 million Palestinians so they turn on Hamas has failed, and was bound to fail. Get rid of them.

[denwerdinoss]

Originally posted by Unimatrix11
I know, that the radicals on both sides want the other totally gone, with no exception. But they wouldnt get anywhere with this, if they got utterly isolated by their own people.

There´s still germans, who´d like to try a third time. They are utterly isolated tho and except maybe spraying a concentration camp memorial or jewish cementary, they dont get to do much about it. (Toughest recently was the wounding of a police chief this month, which caused an outrage throughout the republic).

But as long as those who carry out the fight are considered as heros, who keep their side save (and they dont) on both sides, goals along the line of utter destruction of the other side are sociable. It must be made clear and obvious to anyone on either side, that he (or she) who kills one of the other side is also responsible for the apparently ineveitable retaliation and thus harming his (her) side, not protecting it.

The only way violence could end this, is when it´s used not only with the goal but also with the effect of utter destruction of the other side. And i fear that this day may come, and be not too far, if this go on like this. The Israelis cant do this, though - they know all too well, what the word ´genocide´ means. The most radical palestinensians may or may not have such compunctions tho.

EDIT: Where have brave men like Rabin gone? You know, what it would show, if israeli civilians would block their own airfields, when rumors spread out that a strike is imminent? That would give goose-bumps worldwide. Maybe it would make one or the other palstinian mum say to her kid: ´If you go launch rockets on them, i am gonna be so ashamed - you wouldnt be my son anymore.´ If some local isreali government decided to give most of the water to the few israelis and thus deprive many palis of that vital good. If then those benefitting israelis would make a ´water march´ each day with buckets in their hands to the pali-camp, until the unfairness ends. How about that ? Thats brave ! That protects ! That may lead to peace. Naive - i know. The reason you are all pacifist now is because we crushed you Germans. If you want to go for round three, we salt the earth this go round.

[PrareeLor]

TCO, personally, i dont think there is a need for germans to try a third time, cause apparently there is others eager to do it for us. Yeah, you got it.

onodera: Actually, i think, in the long term, a federation could be an option. The land problem is a very hard one in this conflict. It might be impossible to find a ´fair´ line of division. So unification may be the only option. Maybe with two chambers of parliament, one for each side, with the right to veto each other. Or something like that. Utopia - i know.

[Lydiaswingert]

Originally posted by Unimatrix11

EDIT: A rocket in this case is a sure sign someone is discontent, to say the least, with his situation. Changing the situation, instead of killing that someone, offers the only way to a permanent solution.
Well, changing the situation by killing that someone and making it clear to everyone else that if they become that someone, they'll be killed, too, is another permanent solution.

[Smeaphvalialm]

Numbers 34:1-12
Ezekiel 47:13-20