[Hodstcopter]

Originally posted by Asher
You work with snoop?

He needs to work on his attention to detail. The Fantasy Hockey League has butchered stats due to his work. My QA analysts only had a 66% bug catching rate

[grizolsemn]

Personally, I dont see the point of a MSc. Perhaps it's different in the CS world but the salary increase is negligable in biotech. The MBA is worth way more in the long run than any MSc provided you're not an idiot who "loves" his work (as I unfortunately do).

I spend every second I can telling my girls to become professionals and not to enter science unless they get an MBA and manage the science.

[Aminkaoo]

I am sorry to hear you were fired. Get an MBA, since it will still be useful when we run out of silicon and cannot use computers anymore.

[rorsvierwelia]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
I am sorry to hear you were fired. Get an MBA, since it will still be useful when we run out of silicon and cannot use computers anymore. I'm not fired, I'm still gainfully employed. Just keeping my options open.

You've got 1 strike left before I boot you from the ticket.

[Hinigyday]

You're a regular Biden when you run your mouth.

[sarasaraseda]

Originally posted by Asher
What is a "professional"? You can be a professional by studying a science... A professional refers to a lawyer, physician, or pharmacist etc. Scientists are not professionals since we are too few, too diverse, and (most importantly) have no regulating organization (which is why we are relatively badly paid and treated like **** for most of our careers).

[Nesskissabe]

A professional is someone who works for a living. Scientists are academics, who study things or otherwise increase the general knowledge but don't actually produce anything (directly or by managing people who do). Professionals are directly involved in producing a good or a service, and additionally requires substantial training (generally a college degree) to be defined as a 'professional'; ie, a factory worker isn't a 'professional' but a chemical engineer is. Yes, it's a dumb distinction, but there you are.

Computer Scientists are not professionals. Computer Programmers are (as are Software Engineers, Software Developers, or whatever else you want to call us). That's the difference...

[smifatv]

I define "Computer Science" as "The academic pursuit regarding the advancement of computer programming or technology as a theoretical pursuit". It's Engineering if you're actually making anything. Certainly you get a BSc in Computer Science to become a software engineer, just as you get a BSc in Chemical Science in order to become a Chemical Engineer... but if you are a "Computer Scientist" you are studying theory, not doing/making things. Software Engineering is no more a subset of Computer Science than Electrical Engineering is a subset of Physics.

Thus, I consider you a Software Engineer, who has knowledge in Computer Science, but not actually pursuing a career in Computer Science (at the moment, anyway).

Your definition is mostly fine - the difference is in what you do with that knowledge. Researching what you do with computers is not the same as designing production software, which is where Software Engineer comes in.

[LfYaRf1S]

It does nothing to my theory ... Canada is stupid, therefore you can't use it as an example.

You're right, though, it's just a terminology difference ... I use it because I think there should be a term for what I consider computer scientist (someone who studies it at a theoretical level). To me, Scientists (generally) are always people studying 'why' and less 'how', while engineers are studying 'how' and 'what' - ie, what are we making today. I would never consider myself a scientist, even though I sometimes develop new ways of doing things; I am an engineer, a tinkerer, not a theorizer.

But at the end of the day I suppose it doesn't really matter I think the difference explains why he doesn't consider 'computer scientist' a professional, though - not because YOU aren't a professional, but because he doesn't consider CS to be your career (at the moment).

[qilmuz6v]

Originally posted by SpencerH
I spend every second I can telling my girls to become professionals and not to enter science unless they get an MBA and manage the science. I wish somebody had told me that just got a BSc in Chemistry and yeah the pay for available jobs sucks, i was earning more in the part time call centre job i had paying my way through uni.

I wonder if it's possible to talk my way into joining an MBA a couple of weeks after term has started.

[zilsolley3]

Originally posted by snoopy369
A professional is someone who works for a living. Scientists are academics, who study things or otherwise increase the general knowledge but don't actually produce anything (directly or by managing people who do). Professionals are directly involved in producing a good or a service, and additionally requires substantial training (generally a college degree) to be defined as a 'professional'; ie, a factory worker isn't a 'professional' but a chemical engineer is. Yes, it's a dumb distinction, but there you are.

Computer Scientists are not professionals. Computer Programmers are (as are Software Engineers, Software Developers, or whatever else you want to call us). That's the difference... Neither chemical engineers nor software programmers are "professionals". AFAIK, neither group has a governing "society" that determines whether or not you may pursue work in that profession. For example, a law degree does not allow you to work as an attorney, passing the bar does. Medical school does not allow you to work as a physician, medical board exams do.

[Xavier_Spinner_Wheels]

Originally posted by Asher




Maybe things are radically different in Canada, but we have a concept of "Professional Engineers". To be a practicing engineer in Canada, by law, you need to be a "professional engineer".

I think your definition of what a professional is is very narrow. There are many professionals in many lucrative fields, even if it's not governed by a professional body. But in this case, they are anyway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer

Professional Engineer (P.E.) is the term for registered or licensed engineers in some countries who are permitted to offer their professional services directly to the public.

The term Professional Engineer and the actual practice of professional engineering is legally defined and protected by a government body. In some jurisdictions only registered or licensed Professional Engineers are permitted to use the title, or to practice Professional Engineering.

The earmark that distinguishes a licensed/registered Professional Engineer is the authority to sign and seal or "stamp" engineering documents (reports, drawings, and calculations) for a study, estimate, design or analysis, thus taking legal responsibility for it.

In Canada, regulation and registration are accomplished through a self governing body, that is given the power to register and discipline engineers as well as regulate the field of engineering in their province, such as Professional Engineers Ontario. Many of these associations are also responsible for regulating other related professions. The process for registration is generally as follows:

1. Graduate with a degree from an accredited program in engineering or applied science,
2. Complete an Engineer in Training program under the direction of a P.Eng. (This is normally a four-year program)
3. Review of work experience by the Association,
4. Pass a professional practice exam (essentially an engineering ethics and law exam).

Engineers are not registered in a specific discipline but are prohibited by the Code of Ethics from practicing beyond their training and experience. Breaches of the code are often sufficient grounds for enforcement, which may include the suspension or loss of license, as well as financial penalties and now, through recent changes to Canadian law, could also result in jail time should negligence be shown to have played a part in any incident in which there is loss of human life.

Engineers are not tested on technical knowledge during the licensing process; however, the accreditation of schools and their accredited degree granting status are tightly monitored and controlled. The Canadian system thus ensures that a specific and regimented curriculum is offered and tested with strict accordance to set national standards. This streamlines the overall licensing process and ensures a firm national standard on the quality of engineering in Canada. This accreditation process is governed by the Canadian Council of Professional Engineers through their active group the Canadian Engineering Accreditation Board. The accreditation process is continuous and enforced through regular accreditation reviews of each school. These reviews typically include the review of the school's curriculum (including marked final exams and assignments), interviews of current students, extra curricular activities and teaching staff as well additional areas the visiting board may feel need addressing. The specific areas considered are Curriculum Content, Program Environment, and General Criteria. The associations are granted both an exclusive right to title and an exclusive right to practice.

There are only a few exceptions specifically noted in the acts and it does not include any "industrial exemptions". Therefore, a practicing engineer is legally required to be registered. The level of enforcement varies depending on the specific industry. The federal government is exempt from provincial laws, but in general the federal government will only give the title "engineer" to their employees who as part of their job requirements are able to be registered as a licensed Professional Engineer.

The iron ring typically worn on the little finger of a Canadian engineer is not a trademark of a Professional engineer, rather it is given upon completion of a bachelors degree in applied science or engineering. Your post said it all In Canada, regulation and registration are accomplished through a self governing body, that is given the power to register and discipline engineers as well as regulate the field of engineering in their province, such as Professional Engineers Ontario. Gotta go back to work now

[Sapremolz]

Originally posted by Asher
I'm debating going back to school for a MSc in CS or an MBA. I'm not sure which, or if it's worth it. Not too optimistic about employment in the near-future ey?

[edit Why include so much more text in your post that I obviously wouldn't read?

[dserbokim]

Originally posted by Colon™


Not too optimistic about employment in the near-future ey?

[edit Why include so much more text in your post that I obviously wouldn't read? To provide context?

It's just uncertain. I work for a private company, I don't know its financial situation other than lots of people spinning in their chairs waiting for work right now.

I'm slated to go on a project starting next week so I'll be okay for a while at least. Just keeping the options open.

[HonestSean]

I am trying to decide if I want an MBA, MPA, or MDY personally.

I might get a combo of two. It'd be paid for. I was thinking of doing the first one from a good online program (one that costs $30k) while working and then going to a really good school physically later.

[lidya-sggf]

Asher, you're a tool. You are better that, IMO, despite your arrogance. The arrogance is typical to your discipline, this gives you so much chance at success (meaning real bank) if you overcome it and learn to make money rather than earn it.

[topbonuscasino]

It means that until Asher wakes up he's going to continue to be someone's beitch, in a business sense. The real way to business success is to become partners. If he's going to go back to school maybe he should go back to learn skills he doesn't have, like people skills. I doubt there's anything he'd learn from a MS degree in computer BS that he doesn't already pretend to know.

His best option would be to get an MBA because that would send a message to employers that "despite having a technical degree I still want to learn the business savvy that leads to cash and/or success and/or helping people." That is what it says, and that is why people say it opens doors. And, to be honest, that is all it does.