[fissasste]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Reducing a citizenry to second class because of violence by a subset of the population is never proportional and just begets more hard feelings, more violence, and more symphathy with those engaged in violent behavior. It's not a subset of the population. In Gaza it's the governament. If the leaders of the people don't want to end the hostilities of a part of the population, then there's nothing Israel can do but make the entire nation responsible.

If people from Belgium start detonating bombs in Holland, start shooting rockets into dutch territory, and their governament keeps refusing to stop the hostilities, then I assure you that we, the dutch, can't do anything but close the border with belgium and take action inside Belgium to end the hostilities.

If you deny that, then you deny nations the right to protect themselves.
And use force to protect yourself is unpleasant, and as a matter of fact, I hate war and violence. But if that's what needs to be done, then it needs to be done.
And Israel is restraining itself quite a bit for a nation that's unders attack for 60 years already, and has the power to end the palestinian problem within weeks by force.

Be fair. The other choice was Fatah.

And even out of two evil choises, they were able to pick the worst option.
But you're right, the palestinians are victims of their own leaders, and of all arabian/muslim leaders, who use them as a playcard.

But we can't blame Israel for those leaders.

It's sad when all you care about it winning the war.

I don't care about winning the war.
I care about ENDING the war.
And a war will only end when there's a clear winner.
Certainly in backwards territories like the Middle East.

I think it's pretty shitty. Yes, there are security concerns, but with that argument you could justify anything.

Nobody is trying to justify 'anything' with security concerns.

I'd accept it as temporary thing in case of an acute and concrete threat, but not as permanent solution because of the general situation.

A permanent solution is better leaders in the muslim world, and an end of hate indoctrination against Israel.
But that's on in the hands of Israel.

[q]The problem is the Israelis treating the Palestinians like second class citizens - because they do consider them to be second class citizens (or rather, not citizens at all, of course). /q]

There's a history of problems between those 'people'.
That can't be erased during war.
First peace must be signed and a true intention from the palestinians to not 'push the Israelians into the sea'. Only then the Israelians can start to learn to treath the palestinians as first class citizen.
One cannot both hate a nation, and try to exterminate it, and try to pluck the fruits of that nation.

Hamas was mostly elected, not for the stance on terror and Israel, but because of Fatah's legendary corruption and the need for social services, which Hamas was already providing.

So?
What difference does that make for Israel?

Let's consider some of your "examples" of violence against Israel, 1956 and 1967. Both times, Israel started the war. Some may consider violence and war justified for closing the Straights of Tiran, but regardless, Israel initiated the violence in these cases.

Israel only 'started the violence' in 1967.
And it had to because their main access to resources and food was blocked.
One could claim that a blockade all by itself is already an act of war, btw.

It is beyond question. In 1981, Israel launched an offensive war, in response to PLO shelling of Israel, that was in turn a response to Israel air strikes into Lebanon, which was a reprisal for an attempted assassination carried out by the Abu Nidal organization. "Abu Nidal, abu shmidal. We need to screw PLO!" was Israel's response.

Yes, Israel has started wars. So, what's your point?
It's the only democracy and the only free nation and the only place for Jews in the entire world.
They're in the mids of many nations that hate them and waged war on them before.

It's clear that there's a history of war. And we all agree that the war must end.
But it's also clear that the only reason for Israel to wage war is self protection.
If all groups in the ME stop their aggression, both in words and in deeds, towards Israel, there's no need for self protection for the Israelians anymore.

It's not too much to ask the big majority to cease their aggression first, before the small majority can lay down their arms.

When I'm in a dark street, surrounded by 10 big dudes who hold their knifes towards me and try to rob me, nobody can expect me to trow away my gun first. No, first the 10 big guys with the knifes must stop their attempts to robe me.

And when some of them attack me, nobody can blame me if I shoot two.
And maybe I get a bit nervous and shoot another 1 because I get the feeling that they're trying to attack me again.

In 1948, Israel was every bit as responsible for the war as the other countries. It was much less a war of all Arab countries against Israel as it was of all countries against Palestine, including Israel. Israel had a secret agreement with Tranjordan, which has come out, to divide Palestine between them. It was also a war with Arab states against each other, as one of Egypt's columns was aimed straight at Transjorden. Lebanon's [i]Christian[i] armies were only occupying the part of Palestine that was assigned to the Arabs. Syria tried to seize a part of Israel that the French maps had assigned to Syria. While at the conclusion of the first truce, all sides resumed fighting, it was Israel that violated the 2nd and 3rd truces.

yeah, sure.
Israel was to blame as well.
that we disagree about the interpretation of the facts, ok, I can accept that.
But you now even try to twist the facts.