LOGO
General Discussion Undecided where to post - do it here.

Reply to Thread New Thread
Old 12-19-2007, 11:18 PM   #1
Yswxomvy

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
523
Senior Member
Default The Genesis : Common sense vs. Nietzsche
You should stop licking toads who have eaten mushrooms.
Yswxomvy is offline


Old 12-19-2007, 11:26 PM   #2
Fausqueuego

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
416
Senior Member
Default
Yeah.

The trouser snake.
Fausqueuego is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 12:23 AM   #3
giDdfezP

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
473
Senior Member
Default
Originally posted by Jon Miller
Science didn't exist at the time that genesis was written. In fact, the philsophy that lead to the developement of science didn't exist either (I think).

JM I don't think Nietzsche meant science as we know it (he was astute enough to realize it didn't exist at the time), but rather any generic quest for knowledge and/or authentic independence.
giDdfezP is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 12:27 AM   #4
DfrtYhyu

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
512
Senior Member
Default
Originally posted by Dry
You should stop licking toads who have eaten mushrooms. Zarathustra's "ugliest of all men" was in a pond, but I'm not sure I'm following you.
DfrtYhyu is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 12:33 AM   #5
betraaaus

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
425
Senior Member
Default
Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Zarathustra's "ugliest of all men" was in a pond, but I'm not sure I'm following you. Just trolling.
This kind of questioning from my pov can only happen if/when you're high, hence the 'licking toad' and 'eating, or smoking mushrooms'.
Ignore above post if your questioning is serious.
betraaaus is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 01:13 AM   #6
BegeMoT

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
491
Senior Member
Default
Nietzsche is god…according to some Frenchie… so if anyone knows the real meaning of the bible its Nietzsche.
BegeMoT is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 01:27 AM   #7
XiWm9O9S

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
400
Senior Member
Default
You still care about what that schnauzer wannabe thought?
XiWm9O9S is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 01:55 AM   #8
AlexClips

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
420
Senior Member
Default
Originally posted by Nostromo
You still care about what that schnauzer wannabe thought? And you still haven't found analytical philosophy, as its name implies is, well, anal ?
AlexClips is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 02:23 AM   #9
MiniBoy

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
495
Senior Member
Default
Originally posted by Oncle Boris


And you still haven't found analytical philosophy, as its name implies is, well, anal ? That I sympathize with analytical philosophers doesn't mean that I'm one. And, yes, analytical philosophy can be anal. As a matter of fact, the guy who taught us ontology (in the analytical tradition) called it anal philosophy. And I don't believe there's a single analytical philosopher that I genuinely admire.

BTW, I recently finished On liberty by John Stuart Mill and its one of the best books I ever read. You won't like it, 'cause you're a commie. But he's one of the few philosophers I genuinely admire.

Individuality and even eccentricity is better than massive social uniformity. The latter is the consequence of both terror and tyranny. But it can also be the consequence of democracy. Influenced by de Tocqueville's analysis of American culture, Mill came to think that the chief danger of democracy is that of suppressing individual differences, and of allowing no genuine development of minority opinion and of minority forms of culture. Democracy might will impoverish the culture of the community by imposing a single and inflexible set of mass values. This form of government has the virtue of fostering intelligence, common moral standards, and happiness; but where the citizens are unfit and passive it can be an instrument for tyranny, perhaps of one, as with Louis Napoleon, or perhaps of the many. In general, the only reliable safeguard can be institutions, educational institutions in particular, that can ensure the development of individuals with personalities strong enough to resist such pressures. But other forms of social order are also called for. Thus, after the rebellion in 1837 in Canada he defended Lord Durham's recommendations for internal responsible self-government in the colonies, free on the whole from interference from the colonial power. But, where Lord Durham recommended a central government and the assimilation of the French population to the English, Mill defended the cultural interests of the French minority, and recommended a form of federal government as an institutional means to protect those interests. A federal form of government was finally secured with the British North America Act of 1867, which created Canada as a confederation. This Act was passed while Mill a member of Parliament. No, I'm not a federalist. But federalism is better than assimiliation, no?
MiniBoy is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 03:28 AM   #10
Kayacterype

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
397
Senior Member
Default
Originally posted by Nostromo
BTW, I recently finished On liberty by John Stuart Mill and its one of the best books I ever read. You won't like it, 'cause you're a commie. But he's one of the few philosophers I genuinely admire. I read it three or so years ago and thought it was fine. I found his theory on moral utility to be BS though.

BTW, I'm not really a commie anymore, post-marxist/deconstructionist perhaps. Of Grammatology ranks in my personal top 3.
Kayacterype is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 05:10 AM   #11
gZAhTyWY

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
434
Senior Member
Default
Originally posted by Oncle Boris
What did God mean to tell Adam in the Genesis ?

a) Nietzsche believes that the Forbidden Fruit is the expression of the Jewish priest's fright of science, which would destroy the idea of God.
b) But a more commonsensical explanation would be that God told Adam that if he ****ed Eve, Eve would give birth and her ***** would hurt.

Which explanation is correct ? They're both moronic. The correct answer is

c) Your life is perfect right now. You have no reason to lick the flagpole other than perversity. If you're going to be perverse, it's your call, but it's gonna hurt. I have warned you of this.
gZAhTyWY is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 06:55 AM   #12
feseEscaple

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
464
Senior Member
Default
Oh, more Nietzscheterror. Wasn't he a racist anyway?
feseEscaple is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 12:59 PM   #13
jessyhalm

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
499
Senior Member
Default
Originally posted by Nostromo
On liberty by John Stuart Mill
Good book, I'm kind of fond of utilitarianism myself. It does have several problems though.
jessyhalm is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 01:07 PM   #14
P3bWjm1j

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
426
Senior Member
Default
Incredibly misogynist, yes, but not racist.
P3bWjm1j is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 05:27 PM   #15
Pelefaifs

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
495
Senior Member
Default
Chavah and the Tree - Week Six

Hello,

This week we wrapped up our look at Ibn Ezra's "Peshat" approach, and began to look at Rashi's "Derash" understanding.

Ibn Ezra
We looked at Ibn Ezra's methods of arriving at his conclusions. Ibn Ezra used three easily discerned methods:


1. Simple words: Ibn Ezra looked at the straightforward words in explaining what the serpent was, and how it could communicate with Chavah. As far as Ibn Ezra is concerned, the snake was a normal snake, and Gd simply gave it the power of communication with humans.

2. Context: Ibn Ezra looked at the verses immmediately preceding and succeeding Adam and Chavah eating from the tree, and determined that the type of knowledge given to Adam and Chavah was knowledge about male-female relationships. This then makse it clear what Chavah wanted from the Tree.

3. Logic/Science: Ibn Ezra depended on logic to conclude that Humanity must have been intelligent before the Tree, and he used the achievements of Greek science to conclude that humans were never meant to live forever.



One interesting point, though, emerges from the Rambam. The Rambam writes that if a person's interpretation of a Torah verse contradicts reality, it is obvious that the interpretation is incorrect.

Rashi
We now turned to Rashi's understanding of the event.

Overview
Rashi explained that this story is about failing at perfection, and bringing physical imperfection - Death and Decay - to the world. Chavah wanted to grow beyond what she was, and she was persuaded to violate her Mitzvah in order to achieve this end.

Rashi's Answers to our Central Questions

1. What is the nature of this tree?
Rashi believed that the tree of life gave eternal life, and the tree of knowledge gave knowledge of taste, preference and desire, where Adam and Chavah had heretofore experienced only True/False.


-snip -


Comparing Rashi and Ibn Ezra
Rashi and Ibn Ezra are very similar in their reading. The key differences are:

1. The type of knowledge which the tree provided, and
2. The central focus of the story, whether on Knowledge or on Perfection and Imperfection Along the way, though, there are a few more interesting variations between their approaches.


The Nature of the Tree of Life
Rashi understands that Adam and Chavah were originally immortal, and that HaShem's warning of "You will die" meant that they would become mortal on eating from the Tree of Knowledge. This, of course, deals with the problem of why they did not die immediately upon eating - it wasn't a death sentence, it was removal of their immortality.

The Nature of the Tree of Knowledge
Rashi gains his basic understanding of what the Tree provided by looking at Bereishis 3:22. This verse follows the punishment which HaShem meted out to the serpent, Chavah and Adam.

In this verse, Gd says (this is a paraphrasal rather than a translation), "Humanity has become like one of 'us,' knowing good and evil. Now, lest he take from the tree of life and live forever…" Gd concludes by sending Adam and Chavah out of the garden.

What was Gd's concern? Lest they eat from the tree of life, and live forever. What's wrong with that? Is it that Gd has already decreed death for them? Surely Gd can overrule a tree, even if they eat from it!

Rashi explains that there are two factors working together - having the knowledge from the tree of knowledge, and having the life from the tree of life. If Adam and Chavah have both higher knowledge and eternal life, others will think them to be gods.

Rashi believes that Adam and Chavah were supposed to be immortal until they ate from the tree of knowledge, but that was not a problem, for they didn't have this knowledge at that time. The combination is what is hazardous.

That explains why the tree of knowledge was banned, but what is this higher knowledge, that could cause others to confuse them for gods? Rashi says that it is knowledge which separates humans from animals. Others (see Sifsei Chachamim 3:22) have expanded on this, indicating that where animals know only True/False, or Beneficial/Harmful, humans know Desire for good and evil. It is a broad type of Taste or Value, which transcends the specific nature Ibn Ezra ascribed to the Tree of Knowledge's gift.

-snip -

Chavah and the Tree - Week Seven


The Tree
First, we returned to a point from last week. Where Ibn Ezra had said that the Tree provided knowledge of interaction between men and women, Rashi said that the Tree provided general knowledge.

Ibn Ezra had based his idea on the verses before, during and after they ate from the fruit:

1. The verse immediately before the serpent spoke to Chavah (Bereishis 2:25) mentioned that Adam and Chavah were not wearing clothing, and were not embarrassed.

2. Immediately after Chavah and Adam ate, we are told (3:7) that their eyes were opened, and they knew they were not wearing clothing, and they sewed fig leaves into belts.

3. After Gd punishes Chavah and Adam, He makes leather clothing for them (3:21).


What does Rashi do with those verses?
According to Sifsei Chachamim (3:1), citing R' Eliyahu Mizrachi, Rashi held that Adam and Chavah actually had clothing before this event occurred. When the Torah says (2:25) that they weren't wearing clothing, it is referring to an interlude when they weren't wearing clothing, but they actually had clothes.


1. Their lack of clothing is mentioned in 2:25 because that lack of clothing was what led the serpent to become interested in Chavah, as we will explain later.

2. When the Torah says (3:7) that Adam and Chavah had their eyes opened, it doesn't specify that they knew they weren't wearing clothing; it says they knew they were "bare." Rashi takes this to mean that they knew they had lost their Mitzvah.

3. The verse about Gd making leather clothing for Adam and Chavah (3:21) actually describes an event which occurred before this whole story. This story was injected here, before the clothing was mentioned, because it was a continuation of the story of the splitting of Adam and Chavah into two beings. As we have discussed in other contexts, Rashi's Midrashic view of the Torah accepts the idea that a story may be moved out of chronological order, in order to fit its topical context.


As Ben Tzion pointed out today, there is one problem here - in 3:7, when the Torah says that Adam and Chavah had their eyes opened, it also says that they made clothes from fig leaves for themselves. Why was there any need to do this, if Gd had already given them clothing? This requires examination.


-snip -

Chavah and the Tree - Week Eight

Hello,

This week we concluded our look at this event by summarizing the similarities/differences between Rashi and Ibn Ezra, and by presenting some additional notes from Ramban and Seforno.

Similarities between Rashi and Ibn Ezra

1. According to both Rashi and Ibn Ezra, the "knowledge" which the tree provided was an element of taste, or personal preference. Knowledge of moral and value shadings would lead to desire.
2. The serpent took advantage of Chavah's error (regarding touching the tree) to get her to re-think her reluctance to eat from the tree.
3. Chavah trusted the serpent's words.


Differences between Rashi and Ibn Ezra

1. The type of knowledge which the tree provided - Rashi understands it as general knowledge/desire, whereas Ibn Ezra limits it to the area of male-female interaction.
2. The reason for the serpent's involvement - Rashi says the serpent was interested in Chavah, for himself. Ibn Ezra does not address the question of why the serpent tried to persuade Chavah to take the fruit.
3. Why Chavah trusted the serpent - Rashi adds that the serpent pushed Chavah into the tree, which helps explain the role of her error regarding touching the tree, and helps explain why she believed the serpent. Ibn Ezra does not include this.
4. Why Chavah gave the fruit to Adam - According to Rashi, Chavah ate and realized she would die, and didn't want to face death alone. According to Ibn Ezra, they both ate together.


Additional Views
In terms of the tree itself, and the "knowledge" it provided, we brought two additional views:

The Tree: Ramban
Ramban (Bereishis 2:9) - The tree provided Desire. The difference between Ramban's view and that of Rashi and Ibn Ezra is that Ramban doesn't say it is knowledge which leads to desire, but rather that the tree provided that actual desire. Until that point, humanity acted on highly-developed instinct.

Ramban backs up this idea by pointing to several verses (Tehillim 144:3, Shemos 33:12) in which "Daas," as in "Daas Tov vaRa," refers to desire rather than to knowledge.


The Tree: Seforno
Seforno - The tree provided the ability to turn a blind eye to one's intellect. According to Seforno, there are two basic elements to a decision:
A. Superficial Benefit, and
B. Real Benefit.
These may, at times, conflict. The Tree allowed humanity to ignore the second part, in favor of the first. "Knowledge of Good and Evil" actually refers to "Knowledge of Superficial Good and Evil." The fruit of the tree would, in effect, enable humanity to ignore what they knew to be right.


As Phyllis pointed out, this was actually inherent in eating from the tree, itself. The fruit didn't have to be anything special; once Chavah ate, she learned this ability to blind herself to what she knew was right.


-snip-
Pelefaifs is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 05:43 PM   #16
Muhabsssa

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
577
Senior Member
Default
How did I know that LOTM would make the most boring post of the thread ?
Muhabsssa is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 06:31 PM   #17
Wachearex

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
426
Senior Member
Default
Originally posted by Oncle Boris
How did I know that LOTM would make the most boring post of the thread ? Have a VERY happy holiday
Wachearex is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 09:07 PM   #18
Nzmoafzn

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
464
Senior Member
Default
You'd think "the word of god" would be a little clearer.
Nzmoafzn is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 10:43 PM   #19
JamesTornC

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
319
Senior Member
Default
Originally posted by Wezil
You'd think "the word of god" would be a little clearer. Then it would be too limited in meaning. "turn in it, turn in it, everything is in it" only makes sense if it has many layers of meaning that require, you know, effort, and, er, KNOWLEDGE to make sense of.

Or, one might almost say, those goyim are always looking for the easy way, huh? Id never say that, cause it wouldnt be nice.
JamesTornC is offline


Old 12-20-2007, 11:15 PM   #20
ringtonesmannq

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
464
Senior Member
Default
Originally posted by DaShi


Nietzsche is dead. So is God.
ringtonesmannq is offline



Reply to Thread New Thread

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:50 PM.
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Design & Developed by Amodity.com
Copyright© Amodity