[CitsMoise17]

Originally posted by GePap
You still did what you wanted though. Why do I want to die though? Am I not getting my desires met or am I mentally ill. Perhaps in any case I am free, but in the case where I'm not getting my desires met I don't think that is freedom. Let's just say that I would be more free living and having my desires met.

Sorry, I don't have an explaination as to why I don't want to be totured. I just don't. Most people don't. I don't think they have an explaination either.

I wasn;t asking for an explination of why you would not want to be tortured, I was asking you WHO would be doing the torture, why anyone else would be willing to torture you in behalf of the tyrant if that person is a tyrant who limits their freedom. I imagine the people who do that sort of thing are psychopaths. Lucky for them. They get their dream job, and it's all legal. I doubt if they changed their desires though. Are you saying that a person who wasn't a psychopath would have the job and actually desires that type of work?

I very well be free, depending on how you define the word, however, I am definitely not ABLE to change my desires. Not at a whim of course. I mean I could go to a drug treatment center and work a program there so that I wont desire drugs anymore, but that's about all I can do with regard to my desires.

Of course you are free to change your desires. You want something at one point, and not at another. You may desire coffee at one point of the day, then change that to a desire for some other drink, or food, or whatever. The principle works similarly for grander aims. I don't change my desire. If I want coffee I just want coffee. I don't plan to want coffee and then go about executing a plan. Do you operate that way?
AS for your example, that is not a desire, but a chemical dependency, something that lies outside of your conscious control. All of my desires lie outside of my control. The difference is that if I have a chemical dependency I am mentally ill and I can get help. The only way to change a normal desire is brainwashing.

I don't know.

Then get cracking. As they say, "know thyself." I can say "I want money" and the point is "I like money." Why? "To buy things." What comes after that? I don't know. I suppose I could go on for a little while, but the truth is I don't know why I REALLY desire things. That's a very deep question.

It is not always a question of life and death - that is the issue simply at its most extreme. If you want to be totally free in the way that you are advocating it certainly does mean death or a life that most people don't really want to live.

It comes down to this. If a person were to live doing whatever they wanted to do regardless of the consequences then they are free to a certain degree. However, if you remove the consequences they are freer. Aren't they?

[st01en_lox]

Originally posted by GePap
They might think themselves more free because people like being able to act wiothout consequence, but they are not actually more or less free. That's a blatantly false statement. The less consequences we have for the actions that we desire to take the more free we are. Enough of this nonsense.

I challenge your claim that we are free because the rulers give us what we want. They don't give us everything we want, or everything they can give us for that matter. They give us just enough so that we won't overthrow them, make us think that what they gave us is worth more than it is, and take the rest for themselves. Furthermore, they take action to increase the cost of replacing them whenever they can, and make us think that the cost is higher than it actually is. What do you say to that?

[Dastyh]

Like in the Soviet Union. You can have a new watch and elect a leader to wear it for you.

[mobiphones]

Originally posted by DaShi
Like in the Soviet Union. You can have a new watch and elect a leader to wear it for you. Right, or even somewhere else, they tell you that you have a new enemy, that they have created themselves, and you need to pay for new expensive weapons for example.

[ticfarentibia]

The feeling is now mutual.