[zzbust]

Hi,

This question is regarding having family members, friends, or co-workers who live a different lifestyle, whether homosexuality or are involved in other very questionable things.
How far do we, as Christians, allow ourselves to be involved in their life? For instance, as an example of having a homosexual friend or family member do we allow them to bring their partner around and include their partner in our lives? I know we are to love the sinner and not the sin, but where do we draw the line with tolerarting their behaviour or are we supposed to condem it. I am just not sure if tolerating these behaviour is saying that I accept it eventhough I don't.

I agree with this explaination of homosexuality from, http://orthodoxwiki.org/Homosexuality, but how do we love the sinner, as I am too a sinner, without accepting their lifestyle.

This question is not just about homosexuality but in reagrd to having friends, family members who are alcoholics, or drug addicts as well.

A confused Orthodox,

Tanya R.

[chuecafresss]

The book Jude very helpful in understanding the Christian position on homosexuality. We live in a world that is being desensitized by films, gay marriage, gay adoption, that most of the world is starting to see these lifestyles as perfectly normal. We have to have limits on how we engage with people of such behavior, Christian love and compassion (tolerance) is not acceptance. We can try to help them but with much care as not to fall into the mindset of Sodom and Gomorrah. When our moral standards degrade the next step is acceptance and practice of immorality.

[johnteriz]

Some people do indeed equate "tolerance" with "acceptance", however they are NOT synonymous. I have found that the least tolerant people are those who cry loudest for "tolerance" because they conflate the two terms.

[adultcomicssitedessaa]

Unfortunately that which is tolerated becomes accepted within a generation. Its best to limit interaction with such individuals and resist what most believe are 'enlightened values'.

[Immerymopay]

If someone were to rape you, and they served their time in prison and even asked forgiveness with a sincere heart; one is not required to allow that person back into their lives. We set boundaries based on our morals and ethics. If someone wants to live a lifestyle outside our boundaries, then more power to them. But we don't have to allow them into our lives if they are not going to adhere to our boundaries.

As Herman said; tolerance is not acceptance. Love the sinner, hate the sin. I have two co-workers that are gay. I have to maintain a professional demeanor with them. I talk to them about God whenever the opprotunity presents itself. I do not hang out with them on a personal level. That is outside my boundary. They respect my boundries and do not "flaunt" their lifestyle in front of me.

Paul

[Reftsheette]

Thank you for your opinions. It is true that we, as Christian, have to limit our exposure and interactions with people who are openly flaunting their unnatural lifestyle, whether it is homosexuality or heterosexuals having fornication. As Christians we have to keep ourselves unstained from this world, and this world seems to be going into deep dark abyss.
I guess tolerance is to show respect, mercy, and grace towards them as God has done for us but we also need to speak the truth.
We are living in a world where good is bad and bad is good. Scary.

[snislarne]

I think one of the best comments on tolerance comes from Fr Thomas Hopko, erstwhile dean of St Vladimir's Seminary in New York:

"Tolerance is always in order when it means that we coexist peacefully with people whose ideas and manners differ from our own, even when to do so is to risk the impression that truth is relative and all customs and mores are equally acceptable (as happens in North America).

Tolerance is never in order when it means that we remain idle before wickedness which harms human beings and destroys God's creation.

To be tolerant is to be neither indifferent nor relativistic. Neither is it to sanction injustice or to be permissive of evil. Injustice is intolerable and evil has no rights. But the only weapons which Christians may use against injustice and evil are personal persuasion and political legislation, both of which are to be enacted in an atmosphere of respect. While Christians are permitted under certain conditions to participate in police and military actions to enforce civil laws and to oppose criminality, we may not obey evil laws nor resort to evil actions in defence of the good. This means that Christians are inevitably called to suffer in this age, and perhaps even to die. This is our gospel, our witness and our defence."

[ardsdelinq]

I think that we need to learn to love people for who they really are, not for what they do.

In Christ
-Fr Raphael

[TpDoctorOneTp]

But loving people often means being honest and up front with them about our own lives and about the choice we all must make between the ways of the world and the Holy Wisdom.

[RooxiaNof]

I think that we need to learn to love people for who they really are, not for what they do.

In Christ
-Fr Raphael

Does this include government workers?

[Clarissa]

Does this include government workers?

Even government workers.

[ligeplodore]

But the only weapons which Christians may use against injustice and evil are personal persuasion and political legislation Hey what about prayer and the fruit of the Spirit?

[TimoPizaz]

I think that we need to learn to love people for who they really are, not for what they do.

In Christ
-Fr Raphael

Thank you Fr Rapheal for reminding me of what it truly means to Christian; as in Matthew 22:37-40 "Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

I sometimes have a hard time letting go of people's mistakes, and see them only in their past behaviours. I have to learn to love my neighbor as myself otherwise I will never get to know who that person is.

[IrrettelatWet]

I thought the question was not "Should I love these people or hate them?" but "How should I love them?" In which case, it only makes sense to consider what they do, because what they do tells us something about what they need from us, which is isn't always acceptance or even tolerance.

Here's St. John Chrysostom on 2 Cor. 7 (cf. 1 Cor. 5):

For it is the part of humanity not to humor the sick in every thing nor to flatter their unseasonable desires. No one so loved him that committed fornication amongst the Corinthians as Paul, who commandeth to deliver him to Satan; no one so hated him as they that applaud and court him; and the event showed it. For they indeed both puffed him up and increased his inflammation; but [the Apostle] both lowered it and left him not until he brought him to perfect health. And they indeed added to the existing mischief, he eradicated even that which existed from the first. These laws, then, of humanity let us learn also. For if thou seest a horse hurrying down a precipice, thou appliest a bit and holdest him in with violence and lashest him frequently; although this is punishment, yet the punishment itself is the mother of safety. Thus act also in the case of those that sin. Bind him that hath transgressed until he have appeased God; let him not go loose, that he be not bound the faster by the anger of God. If I bind, God doth not chain; if I bind not, the indissoluble chains await him. “For if we judged ourselves, we should not be judged.” (1 Cor. xi. 31.) Think not, then, that thus to act cometh of cruelty and inhumanity; nay, but of the highest gentleness and the most skillful leechcraft and of much tender care. But, saith one, they have been punished for a long time. How long? Tell me. A year, and two, and three years? Howbeit, I require not this, length of time, but amendment of soul. This then show whether they have been pricked to the heart, whether they have reformed, and all is done: since if there be not this, there is no advantage in the time. For neither do we inquire whether the wound has been often bandaged, but whether the bandage has been of any service. If therefore it hath been of service, although in a short time, let it be kept on no longer: but if it hath done no service, even at the end of ten years, let it be still kept on: and let this fix the term of release, the good of him that is bound. If we are thus careful both of ourselves and of others, and regard not honor and dishonor at the hands of men; but bearing in mind the punishment and the disgrace that is there, and above all the provoking of God, apply with energy the medicines of repentance: we shall both presently arrive at the perfect health, and shall obtain the good things to come; which may all we obtain, through the grace and love towards men of our Lord Jesus Christ, with Whom, to the Father, with the Holy Spirit, be glory, might, honor, now and ever, and world without end. Amen. You see here that the love Chrysostom credits to the Apostle was not regardless of what someone did but according to what someone did.

[Agitoligflise]

Dear Tania,

The question is tolerance vs acceptance, people have freewill repect and love them no matter who or what they are. Sometimes the more you harp on the further away you push someone from the truth of God. It is the Holy Spirit that calls us, our job is to be nonjudgmental and always be ready to receive a repented soul. Sharing in their lives only promotes a message acceptance. We can love them in many ways ask them to came to Litrugy, do lunch, not Thanksgiving Dinner in you home. It's best to entertain only your immediate friend/family member at family functions if you must. The truth is that you really should not attend any of their parties either. Keep the door open, show Christian love and patience. Our Lord Jesus Christ knows his sheep and they know him.
John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me"



Luke 15:11-32

The Prodical son

11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.
13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.
17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.
“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.
25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’
28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’ 31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”


In Christ, Marcella

[SiM7W2zi]

Should we not just accept all people with gods love , once we put ourselves into the mindset of how we should limit our contact, or be around them ; are we not judging them ? Is it right to judge some one else?

Surely we should leave that to God ? I have been friends with gay people in my life, but those frienships have just petered out because we did not have the same interests, as would any friendship that did not grow, (not because they were gay.) I know the sin is against God , but then, so are the sins that i commit.Which sin is the greater ? Only God can say....

Forgive me a sinner Leah

[konanoileaski]

I thought the question was not "Should I love these people or hate them?" but "How should I love them?" This is a good point. But to answer the question "how should I love them" requires a lot. We have to consider not only what they are doing, but also how they will respond to what we do. We do not want to make the problem worse, giving scratches and deepening or infecting the wound, rather then a bandage with any kind of correction we make.

As any parent, especially of teens, will recognize, our approach - whether done in a true spirit of love..., or done in impatience, defensiveness, concern only for moral "rightness" without any actual mercy of compassion, etc. makes a difference in how this is received by the other person.

But also I think that "tolerance" should be a result of love not of fear. Here also is something to consider.

"We shall not care what people think of us, or how they treat us. We shall cease to be afraid of falling out of favour. We shall love our fellow men without thought of whether they love us. Christ gave us the commandment to love others but did not make it a condition of salvation that they should love us. Indeed, we may positively be disliked for independence of spirit. It is essential in these days to be able to protect ourselves from the influence of those with whom we come in contact. Otherwise we risk losing both faith and prayer. Let the whole world dismiss us as unworthy of attention, trust or respect – it will not matter provided that the Lord accept us. And vice versa: it will profit us nothing if the whole world thinks well of us and sings our praises, if the Lord declines to abide with us. This is only a fragment of the freedom Christ meant when He said, 'Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free' (John 8.32). Our sole care will be to continue in the word of Christ, to become His disciples and cease to be servants of sin."

Elder Sophrony of Essex
from His Life is Mine, p. 55.

[movlabz]

The difficult situation that may arise is where a person feels he is being put, by his association with certain people whom he knows willingly persist in a sinful state, into a position of being, as it were, an accessory to their sin. What if an Orthodox married couple have non-Orthodox friends who they know 'live in sin', or even an Orthodox unmarried couple in that state? Can the Orthodox married couple have such others stay in their home sharing a room? It may be that a person's own brother comes to stay with his lady friend to whom he is not married - can the brother be refused? There must be other examples such as the Christian bed and breakfast couple who decline to accept bookings from homosexual couples (as was discussed some time ago) . There are ways, such as consent or silence or acquiescence or facilitation, of passively participating in others' sins. Christ indeed associated with sinners but with a view to turning them from their sin.

[Metalhead]

There is nothing wrong in your example above Andreas to say to the brother; "You and your lady friend are welcome here. But you will adhere to the rules of this house. You will or will not do (X) and you will sleep in separate bedrooms." They can either respect this boundary or get a hotel during their visit. We do this with my FIL and he out of respect gets a hotel room when he visits (not becuase he is not married but another reason).

There was a privately owned paint company here a few years ago that was taken to court because when they discovered thier clients were gay, they refused to paint their home. They refunded them their money and in turn were sued. They won the case as you can not force a private entity to do something and the fact that before hand they refunded the fees.

We must hold up our boundaries. Some things are just not acceptable; to you, to me, to someone else. People must know where you stand. Unspoken expectations are planned resentments. They may be angry with you in the beginning, but will actually respect you later for sticking to your convictions. If they don't, then s****'em. They don't deserve your friendship.

Paul

[Hlennisal]

Yikes ....