[Eujacwta]

I don't have a problem with the government taking that information down during census time (same with race information) for purely statistical purposes, but the fact that you have to actually "register" as being of one religion or another is a big fat joke.



Poor backwards India.

[!!!maryann!!!]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I don't have a problem with the government taking that information down during census time (same with race information) for purely statistical purposes, but the fact that you have to actually "register" as being of one religion or another is a big fat joke. You don't. You need to register in one state, if you're contemplating conversion. Of course, that's a big fat joke in itself.

[myspacecoo]

Originally posted by aneeshm
I see nothing wrong with that . Do you ? Well, it does imply that the state knows about your religion, and thus that your beliefs aren't solely a personal matter, but also an administrative one.

I have a problem with that. And before you tell me that some western countries do so as well (to the point that religion appeared on Greek IDs until very recently), let me point out that I have a problem with that as well.

[ZonaPutaX]

Oof.

[Alkanyadela]

So the Buddhists reject all the Hindu gods

[bushomeworkk]

I renounce Hinduism, which is harmful for humanity... Of course you realize, this means war! [/Bugs Bunny]



-Arrian

[Adiamant]

It's probably AntiHindu buddhism ...

I'd actually like to know more about why religion is important here: more specifically, why DOES the government care which religion people are? Does the fact that someone is hindu give them more or less power/rights in Indian society, and does the fact that someone is lower caste hindu versus instantly converting to buddhism mean that they have more or less rights?

Why does one state believe that preventing conversions will prevent the "erosion of support for the BJP"? In fact the way I read that, if they make Buddhism a branch of Hinduism, it looks to me that it would *ease* the conversions (as they don't have to be registered)?

[seawolferr]

Originally posted by snoopy369
I'd actually like to know more about why religion is important here: more specifically, why DOES the government care which religion people are? Does the fact that someone is hindu give them more or less power/rights in Indian society, and does the fact that someone is lower caste hindu versus instantly converting to buddhism mean that they have more or less rights? Dalits are considered to be below the traditional caste system. Perhaps non-Hindus are simply considered to be outside the traditional caste system?

[quack!]

Originally posted by snoopy369
But why does the government care that they left hinduism? The government, in the case, was elected by, and consists of, conservative Hindus.

[PetrZimin]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Remind me, when did we decide to keep administrative tabs on our residents' religion?

The ban is against all public displays of religion, and is not only geared to the Muslims. Besides, people don't get "registered" as belonging to one religion or other - there is no administrative trail.
You seem to have misread my post - i did not suggest that France does keep such tabs, but that it would be useful to do so. Since France bans public displays of religion in state schools, it might help determine whether an otherwise unobjectionable act was in fact a public display of religion. After all if an atheist wears a headscarf, on a bad hair day, it would hardly be an expression of religion, right? Similarly a non-Jew might wear a skull cap, simply to hide premature baldness.


OTOH, I suppose French people dont have bad hair days. Ergo, not a major issue.

[hLabXZlK]

Originally posted by Starchild


The Buddhism that the Indian converts are joining include a list of rather anti-Hindu vows:

1) I shall have no faith in Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh nor shall I worship them.
2) I shall have no faith in Rama and Krishna who are believed to be incarnation of God nor shall I worship them.
3) I shall have no faith in ?Gauri?, Ganapati and other gods and goddesses of Hindus nor shall I worship them.
4) I do not believe in the incarnation of God.
5) I do not and shall not believe that Lord Buddha was the incarnation of Vishnu. I believe this to be sheer madness and false propaganda.
6) I shall not perform ?Shraddha? nor shall I give ?pind-dan?.
7) I shall not act in a manner violating the principles and teachings of the Buddha.
8) I shall not allow any ceremonies to be performed by Brahmins.
9) I shall believe in the equality of man.
10) I shall endeavor to establish equality.
11) I shall follow the ?noble eightfold path? of the Buddha.
12) I shall follow the ten ?paramitas? prescribed by the Buddha.
13) I shall have compassion and loving kindness for all living beings and protect them.
14) I shall not steal.
15) I shall not tell lies.
16) I shall not commit carnal sins.
17) I shall not take intoxicants like liquor, drugs etc.
18) I shall endeavor to follow the noble eightfold path and practice compassion and loving kindness in every day life.
19) I renounce Hinduism, which is harmful for humanity and impedes the advancement and development of humanity because it is based on inequality, and adopt Buddhism as my religion.
20) I firmly believe the Dhamma of the Buddha is the only true religion.
21) I believe that I am having a re-birth.
22) I solemnly declare and affirm that I shall hereafter lead my life according to the principles and teachings of the Buddha and his Dhamma.
This rubbish , which has nothing to do with , and has no parallel in , any of the major or minor Buddhist sects ( Mahayana , Hinayana , and Vajrayana ) was first propogated by Ambedkar . The Buddha would be horrified to see this gross perversion of his noble ideals .

That is why I said that I wish the converts would try to find out more about Buddhism and realise that their idol was talking nonsense .

And it won't work . Do you think that people will stop treating them like they were simply because they became Buddhist ? The prejudiced will retain their prejudice , and maybe even strengthen it , seeing their rejection of the last commonalities between them .

The solution which will work is not conversion , but social reform . You have to educate the Dalits , make them self-dependent , so that they will not seek release in Ambedkarite destructiveness . You also have to educate the people in rural areas where discrimination is still a problem . Free primary and secondary education , scholarships when needed , social reform of the rural elite , these are the things that change society for good , not such ridiculous shows of rejection .

[Todilrdc]

Originally posted by LordShiva


The government, in the case, was elected by, and consists of, conservative Hindus. That's ridiculous on two different levels .

Firstly , the argument that if you force someone to remain in one religion , he will love you . On the contrary - if you stop people from converting , or make it difficult , then the people affected will vote against you . You cannot mandate that someone vote for you , just by making conversion difficult .

Secondly - the Gujarat government is LOVED by the people of Gujarat . Visit the place sometime . When you cross over into the state from some other state of India , you feel like that you have changed countries and have come to some first world country and left India far behind . The people of Gujarat love the government , in spite of the negative portrayals of it in the outside media .

It is not just conservative Hindus , it is all the people who have benefited from the development that government has brought to the state . Gujarat is the best administered state in the Union of India .



But continue living in your deluded world where everything the BJP and RSS does is evil . I believe that they're a constructive force . I'm not saying they don't have their flaws , but the BJP is the lesser of two evils . I'll wait for history to deliver its verdict .

[DenisMoor]

Originally posted by aneeshm


As I said , it won't work ! It might put enough pressure on priests, society and/or the government, so that they finally will take action against the treatment of the lower castes.

I doubt that people of the upper castes will see any necessity to take action against these inequalities if the untouchables just endure everything done to them.

[prkddfokic]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Firstly , the argument that if you force someone to remain in one religion , he will love you . On the contrary - if you stop people from converting , or make it difficult , then the people affected will vote against you . You cannot mandate that someone vote for you , just by making conversion difficult . Of course. That's why the law is stupid, for this reason and for those I listed above.

[investmentonlinev2006x]

Why can't you just accept that Hinduism and the caste system are twin oppressions upon the lower classes? Why can't you celebrate their conversion to a more tolerant and loving religion (ie Buddhism)?

[Lictimind]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Why can't you just accept that Hinduism and the caste system are twin oppressions upon the lower classes? Why can't you celebrate their conversion to a more tolerant and loving religion (ie Buddhism)? Because it is not a religious system , but a social system , which is responsible for their oppression ? Because when you actually study Hindu philosophy , caste is completely irrelevant ( it doesn't even credit a mention in any Hindu philosophical school ) ?

And you speak of Hinduism as if it were a monolithic entity with a fixed set of laws . It isn't . It is a continentwide group of religous forces , all interacting with each other .

And I have no problem with them converting to Buddhism , but I do have a problem with them evilly perverting a noble religion to suit their political agenda , as Ambedkar did . I want them to study Buddhism and realise that the Buddha was a philosopher , not a reformer , and that his views on caste were the same as everyone else at that time . He did not concern himself with the material world , and thought that the caste system was fine in its place . I want them to realise that Ambedkar was spouting junk .

In fact , it could be argued that Buddhism was partially responsible for the hardening of caste . His stress on non-violence , and its effect on Indian society , was to convert all respectable people away from professions which involved violence on animals , and dealing with animal products . They became very degraded professions/castes under the Buddhist order .

[zuhraliyana]

Originally posted by aneeshm

* This law is open to rampant abuse . One of my friends runs an agency where they provide nurses to senior citizens . They had no caste prejudices . They did not care about the caste of the nurses they employed . But one day , some nurse falsely accused them of using a caste-based word ( which is a punishable offense ) . That person started creating a fuss outside their house . The police had to be called in to restrain that person . Since that experience , they've stopped employing lower castes . They cannot afford to deal with troublemakers like this , and they have heard horror stories of other people who had to deal with the same things they had to . Is what they did wrong ?
That kind of reminds me of a story. Back in the 1970s some friends of mine had a restaurant. It had been white-only, but as civil rights lawsuits and such were becoming common my friends decided to serve all customers regardless of race. This went fine for a few years, but then one day they had trouble with a negro customer and decided to unofficially do everything could to discourage negroes from patronizing their business. I mean who could blame them, you try to give the negro a chance and a few years later one of them gives you trouble.