[SerycegeBunny]

Greetings all!

I had a thought today, which I realise on retrospect is a thought that has puzzled me since I was a child. Nothing serious, just a thought which might naturally occur to most people, especially those of us living in warm climates.

Normally when we think of God creating the whole of nature, our thought may turn to the trees, the hills, valleys, sunsets, birds and wooly mammals. But my question is this - what about cockroaches? Flies, tapeworms, stick insects, how horrible they are! I realise not everyone is this squeamish, but I really can't see any beauty in a cockroach. Ingenuity of design, perhaps - but beauty?

Now, I can't just put all these ugly creatures down to the Fall. Surely they have a right to exist and God has a positive purpose for them, in contrast to such things as illnesses or typhoons which God again uses to a positive end, but clearly as negative means. So - did God create the cockroach? What did He have in mind? Why make something so hideous as a tapeworm?

Penny for anyone"s thoughts!

In Christ
Byron

[BritneySpearsFun@@@]

My only thought is that I have heard some Darwinists claim that they are the highest form of life.

[orgagsUpsepsy]

Byron wrote:

But my question is this - what about cockroaches? Flies, tapeworms, stick insects, how horrible they are! I realise not everyone is this squeamish, but I really can't see any beauty in a cockroach. Ingenuity of design, perhaps - but beauty? In the eyes of its mother the baboon is a gazelle.

-Turkish proverb.

[yahyynzer]

When we see a dead man's body we usually feel nausea but when we see a slaughtered pig's or lamb's dead and excoriated body we,almost always,imagine a wonderful dinner.

"We are disturbed not by events, but by the views which we take of them."
Epictetus

[Narkeere]

But my question is this - what about cockroaches? Flies, tapeworms, stick insects, how horrible they are! I realise not everyone is this squeamish, but I really can't see any beauty in a cockroach. Ingenuity of design, perhaps - but beauty?

Now, I can't just put all these ugly creatures down to the Fall.

God did not look at his creation and say "It is beautiful" - He said "It is good" Thus it is not necessary for all the elements of creation to be "beautiful" but only to be "good" that is to have and occupy a proper place in the order of the created world. Cockroaches and other "icky" things have their proper place in the world and occupy that place - thus while not beautiful, they are good.

Fr David Moser

[Domovoy]

when we see a slaughtered pig's or lamb's dead and excoriated body we,almost always,imagine a wonderful dinner. Some of us do not.

[Qrhzbadu]

Things that are malign, such as viruses, are, of course, as they are because of the Fall. This is something the renowned naturalist and broadcaster Sir David Attenborough doesn't know or understand.

[skydaypat]

Just as we did not know of the existence of AIDS 30 years ago, perhaps cockroaches and other types of critters were put here just waiting for the opportunity to extract from their bodies the needed antibodies to some futuristic epidemic?

If the insect world is to be the next master race (as some believe) then they have already learned all they need to survive. If my insect killer no longer works on them, then they surely have adapted well to the current climate.

Which seems to be favoring insects more and more each day. Global warming and all. hummm

God only said he would not destroy the earth again with water. He said nothing of bugs. Revelations talks of flying bugs with scorpions tails.....good thing I just bought this new bug zapper for the back porch.

My centimes worth
Paul

[Z1IRo4Ap]

Dear all,

Many thanks for everyone's responses, ranging from the humorous to the profound. Although this is a trivial question when viewed superficially ('why did God create the cockroach?'), I feel it is a question with some important ramifications.

Two things I gather from the responses so far:

1. Aesthetic criteria are subjective. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The cockroach thinks its offspring are cute! In Cyprus we have a similar story to the Turkish proverb about the baboon, Fr Raphael - we say the crow finds its own young to be the prettiest. Nevertheless, I'm not entirely sure beauty is in the eye of the beholder alone. Apart from the fact that humans seem to have collective standards of beauty (OK, these can vary across age and culture), I feel intuitively that some things must be beautiful by nature. Although I wouldn't know from experience, I imagine that to experience grace is an innately beautiful sensation (awful too, I'm told).
2.Cockroaches and other 'icky' creatures were created in God's infinite wisdom, and do not have to conform to our aesthetic criteria in order to have their rightful place in the creation. The fact of their existence, their being, is in itself evidence of their being part of God's 'good' (not necessarily beautiful) creation. This is a rational enough way to understand things, but what about the fact that the existence of some creatures actually spells suffering and disease for humans? Didn't God make man the steward of creation? If we eat a piece of pork and get tapeworm, how can the parasitic existence of this creature which is now feeding on us, be 'good'?

I await everyone's feedback with anticipation! And no more jokes about insects taking over the world, please Paul - here in Cyprus this is a reality too close to the bone!

In Christ
Byron

[BeksTeene]

Byron wrote:




Two things I gather from the responses so far:

2.Cockroaches and other 'icky' creatures were created in God's infinite wisdom, and do not have to conform to our aesthetic criteria in order to have their rightful place in the creation. The fact of their existence, their being, is in itself evidence of their being part of God's 'good' (not necessarily beautiful) creation. This is a rational enough way to understand things, but what about the fact that the existence of some creatures actually spells suffering and disease for humans? Didn't God make man the steward of creation? If we eat a piece of pork and get tapeworm, how can the parasitic existence of this creature which is now feeding on us, be 'good'?
I meant that the baboon's mother sees the truth about her offspring!

Look- from the Patristic, and I am sure from the Orthodox perspective, all of God's creation is good and hence it is beautiful.

Anything that to us looks ugly within this creation is due to our short sightedness brought on by sin or to the ravages of the Fall on this creation which also is brought on by sin. In any case though this hasn't changed the essential nature of creation, it only has distorted it.

Thus, as an example, if to us the tapeworm is ugly that is partly due to how we are blind to its created beauty. But also it is because we react to the way in which its present activity relates to the corrupt conditions of the Fall.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Zhgrlpil]

we react to the way in which its present activity relates to the corrupt conditions of the Fall.
In any case, the latter may presently be a natural way of seeing creation. But I am not sure, let's say according to St Maximus' understanding of seeing this, that it is a spiritual way of seeing this creation.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[tutkarussia]

I have often joked that I was not sure that God created spiders. Aargh! I can't stand those things! I hope God can forgive and understand my arachnophobia.

If you've ever experienced bedbugs, trust me, it is not a fun experience! It may be bad for the environment to wipe them from the face of the planet, but, on an emotional level, I'd be willing to try it! Seriously though, they are horrid little creatures. But they are as God made them. I don't know why.

This seems to be an extension on the discussion of the presence of evil in the universe. Of course, these bugs (bedbugs included) are not in and of themselves evil, but they act like it, in a way. Why did God send the plagues into Egypt? Why does God allow children to starve to death? Why does God allow innocent people to die in terrorism and war?

It is because my sin has polluted the universe. It's similar to a ripple-theory (or chaos theory) on an unseen level. I have sinned, and it has polluted the good universe that God has created - and because of my sin, all these horrible things happen. As well, many good things appear horrible (cockroaches, bedbugs, great white sharks, spiders, etc.). God has delayed His re-ordering of the universe (Christ's second coming) where all of this would be corrected, in order for me to repent. Lord, help me repent!

[lidersontop]

Dear all,

I sense that Fr Raphael's jocular remark about the baboon's mother seeing the truth about her offspring when she perceives them as gazelles, is in fact very much part of the Christian answer to my dilemma. Perhaps if our eye contained no darkness, we would be able to perceive even the beauty of a tapeworm.

Once again I feel I'm standing before the great gulf which separates the spiritual from the merely rational. This is the chasm that probably separates many reasonable people from a life of faith, myself included at times. Cyprian is correct to suggest that this is an extension on the discussion of the presence of evil in the universe , and he sounds equally correct from a religious perspective to further suggest that the presence of living creatures which appear to be horrid, disgusting, filthy and indeed even evil in their mode of existence (viruses, tse-tse flies) is a result of God's delay of the Second Coming until we repent over and depart from our individual sins.

What will creation look like after God returns to earth? Do the saints get a foretaste of this view of creation? What would, say, St John Chrysostom make of the existence of these creatures?

If anyone can refer to writings from actual Church Fathers on insects and other creepy-crawly things, I'd be most interested.

In Christ
Byron

[Singukil]

Dear all,

Further to my last post, I found the following in St Basil's hexameron: How can I describe to you the fearful invasions of locusts, which rise everywhere at a given signal, and pitch their camps all over a country? They do not attack crops until they have received the divine command. Or shall I describe how the remedy for this curse, the thrush, follows them with its insatiable appetite, and the devouring nature that the loving God has given it in His kindness for men? How does the grasshopper modulate its song? Why is it more melodious at midday owing to the air that it breathes in dilating its chest?

But it appears to me that in wishing to describe the marvels of winged creatures, I remain further behind than I should if my feet had tried to match the rapidity of their flight. When you see bees, wasps, in short all those flying creatures called insects, because they have an incision all around, reflect that they have neither respiration nor lungs, and that they are supported by air through all parts of their bodies. Thus they perish, if they are covered with oil, because it stops up their pores. Wash them with vinegar, the pores reopen and the animal returns to life. Our God has created nothing unnecessarily and has omitted nothing that is necessary.

If we simply read the words of Scripture we find only a few short syllables. Let the waters bring forth fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven, but if we enquire into the meaning of these words, then the great wonder of the wisdom of the Creator appears. What a difference He has foreseen among winged creatures! How He has divided them by kinds! How He has characterized each one of them by distinct qualities! But the day will not suffice me to recount the wonders of the air. Earth is calling me to describe wild beasts, reptiles and cattle, ready to show us in her turn sights rivalling those of plants, fish, and birds. Let the earth bring forth the living soul of domestic animals, of wild beasts, and of reptiles after their kind. What have you to say, you who do not believe in the change that Paul promises you in the resurrection, when you see so many metamorphoses among creatures of the air? What are we not told of the horned worm of India! First it changes into a caterpillar, then becomes a buzzing insect, and not content with this form, it clothes itself, instead of wings, with loose, broad plates. Thus, O women, when you are seated busy with your weaving, I mean of the silk which is sent you by the Chinese to make your delicate dresses, remember the metamorphoses of this creature, conceive a clear idea of the resurrection, and do not refuse to believe in the change that Paul announces for all men. St Basil appears to be extolling the ingenuity of creatures and God's wisdom in creating them. Interestingly, he says that locusts attack crops 'when they have received the divine command', and that the thrush is then also given by God as a remedy to 'this curse'. God is seen here as actively visiting suffering on farmers, then providing relief as He judges proper.

What do others make of all this?

In Christ
Byron

[Rtebydou]

Byron wrote:

Further to my last post, I found the following in St Basil's hexameron: St Basil appears to be extolling the ingenuity of creatures and God's wisdom in creating them. Interestingly, he says that locusts attack crops 'when they have received the divine command', and that the thrush is then also given by God as a remedy to 'this curse'. God is seen here as actively visiting suffering on farmers, then providing relief as He judges proper.

What do others make of all this? I hadn't thought of it in this way before. Thought of in themselves many creatures can seem harmful & grotesque. But then consider how God balances what could be harmful to us with what protects us and is beneficial.

Really when you consider how often most of us survive the effects of attacks of such creatures (I'm including here all sorts of viruses, etc) that their destructive power is often stopped at the point of ultimate harm to us, it is a true miracle of God.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Phywhewashect]

Is the Cross ugly or beautiful? Is this just a subjective opinion, one way or another? Can we look at all created things through God's eyes? Is this not the point of salvation? A change, a real change, in how we perceive things, and not just forgiveness of sins? Salvation is Beauty applied to us. St. Basil looks at metamorphosis in nature and sees salvation.

[Hbkj89D2]

In Unseen Warfare it talks about the ultimate goal of dispassion. To see something for what it is and not be turned to like the thing or not like the thing. This goes for hearing, sight, smell, touch and taste.

Paul

[somasideff]

http://prabhuh.files.wordpress.com/2.../cockroach.jpg

[HornyMolly]

http://prabhuh.files.wordpress.com/2.../cockroach.jpg

Thanks Misha...I think that I could have lived without seeing that gastronomic 'delicacy'!!!

Alice

[PheliarearY]

http://prabhuh.files.wordpress.com/2.../cockroach.jpg

mmm, lunch

Leviticus 11:20 ‘All flying insects that creep on all fours shall be an abomination to you. 21 Yet these you may eat of every flying insect that creeps on all fours: those which have jointed legs above their feet with which to leap on the earth. 22 These you may eat: the locust after its kind, the destroying locust after its kind, the cricket after its kind, and the grasshopper after its kind. 23 But all other flying insects which have four feet shall be an abomination to you.