[XarokLasa]

Quote:
And the men\'s learned behavoir

conflicts with what they feel inside. Causes all sorts of distress. Ain\'t our Judio-Christian society\'s mores

a wonderful thing?

<font class=\"post\">

And there have been a passel of cultural

morays and folkways imposed on men that sort of \"boxed in\" their self-definations, for a long time. Men had to

be tough, masculine, never cry, never show vulnerability, yada, yada for a long time.

[P1international]

I don\'t understand, why do you think these techniques don\'t work?

[Pashtet]

Belgareth, I\'d like to apologize for unintentionally changing the subject. I posted that Seinfeld

thing because it said, \"Basically, I can be talked into anything,\" which was going along with your persuasion

thing. I didn\'t mean to turn it into a homosexuality talk (\"not that there\'s anything wrong with

that!!!\"). As my effort to get back onto the subject...

I don\'t know much about the power of persuasion

because I was never good at it. I know a lot of little techniques like always using positive statements (never use

\"don\'t\", \"can\'t\", \"shouldn\'t\", and, interestingly, \"never\"

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]), try to show how much it\'ll benefit the person, make them

feel like they need whatever you\'re trying to get them to believe in/buy/go along with... I could never do it,

though, because I\'m a firm believer in blunt honesty, and I just give it to people straight (in as nice of a way

as possible for the given situation; I\'d rather say, \"You need to work on this\" instead of \"You suck at

this\").

Hell, my best example was convincing a girl to go out with me once. We were best friends, she loved me

more than anything, but it still took me 6 months to persuade her that it was a good thing because she\'s always

gone out with jerks with whom it would never work out and never actually had a relationship that could become

long-term serious. SIX MONTHS!!!!!!!!!! Apparently, I\'m doing something wrong.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Of course, I\'ve had two other people fall in love with me in

one night (PM me if you think I\'m full of crap and want proof).........so maybe it\'s the person. I don\'t

know. I\'m just trying to get the discussion going even though I\'m the last person to know jack about this.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I tried, Bel. Hope it helps.

Pancho

[MoreEndotte]

Quote:
And the men\'s learned behavoir

conflicts with what they feel inside. Causes all sorts of distress. Ain\'t our Judio-Christian society\'s mores

a wonderful thing?

<font class=\"post\">

Now wait a minute, Bel. That\'s not fair.

Christian morals say that homosexuality is wrong, yes. But they don\'t teach you to hate anyone who\'s

homosexual, or to be homophobic. I may not agree with someone\'s choice to be homosexual, and I may not march

proudly down the street with someone merely because they are gay, but that doesn\'t mean I can\'t love someone

who is gay, it doesn\'t mean I should discriminate against anyone who is gay, and it doesn\'t mean I wouldn\'t

proudly walk down the street with someone who is gay for any other reason. Christian morals say you should not

judge, because none of us is clean enough to pass judgment.

Any person who hates, discriminates, or does violence

to someone because that person is gay is not acting along Christian morals anymore than if they were doing any of

those things to someone because he was a different race. A lot of people like to take Christian morals and twist

them into something they\'re not, or to use them for their own purposes. It still doesn\'t make it true.

[kjanyeaz1]

Quote:
I don\'t understand, why do you think

these techniques don\'t work?

<font class=\"post\">

I never said they didn\'t. read

my post. I said the simple fact is they do work.

[kjanyeaz1]

Quote:

Quote:
And the men\'s learned behavoir conflicts with what they feel inside.

Causes all sorts of distress. Ain\'t our Judio-Christian society\'s mores a wonderful thing?

<font class=\"post\">

Now wait a minute, Bel. That\'s not fair. Christian morals say that

homosexuality is wrong, yes. But they don\'t teach you to hate anyone who\'s homosexual, or to be homophobic. I

may not agree with someone\'s choice to be homosexual, and I may not march proudly down the street with someone

merely because they are gay, but that doesn\'t mean I can\'t love someone who is gay, it doesn\'t mean I

should discriminate against anyone who is gay, and it doesn\'t mean I wouldn\'t proudly walk down the street

with someone who is gay for any other reason. Christian morals say you should not judge, because none of us is clean

enough to pass judgment.

Any person who hates, discriminates, or does violence to someone because that person is

gay is not acting along Christian morals anymore than if they were doing any of those things to someone because he

was a different race. A lot of people like to take Christian morals and twist them into something they\'re not, or

to use them for their own purposes. It still doesn\'t make it true.

<font br / br / class=\"post\">

You misunderstand me. I am commenting on what it teaches to believe about ourselves, not about

others.

[kjanyeaz1]

Quote:
Jerry\'s Monologue:

What causes

homophobia? What is it that makes a heterosexual man worry? I think it\'s because men know that deep down we have

weak sales resistance. We\'re constantly buying shoes that hurt us, pants that don\'t fit right. Men think,

\"Obviously I can be talked into anything. What if I accidentally wander into some sort of homosexual store,

thinking it\'s a shoe store, and the salesman goes, \'Just hold this guy\'s hand, walk around the store a

little bit, see how you feel. No obligation, no pressure, just try it. Would you like to see him in a sandal?\'\"

<font class=\"post\">

I think most men who are homophobic are that way because they

recognize the tendancy towards homosexuality in themselves. There is no such thing as 100% straight or gay, it\'s

all varying shades. Some men are afraid of it and as a result hate it.

[XarokLasa]

Quote:

Quote:
And the men\'s learned behavoir conflicts with what they feel inside.

Causes all sorts of distress. Ain\'t our Judio-Christian society\'s mores a wonderful thing?

<font class=\"post\">

Now wait a minute, Bel. That\'s not fair. Christian morals say that

homosexuality is wrong, yes. But they don\'t teach you to hate anyone who\'s homosexual, or to be homophobic. I

may not agree with someone\'s choice to be homosexual, and I may not march proudly down the street with someone

merely because they are gay, but that doesn\'t mean I can\'t love someone who is gay, it doesn\'t mean I

should discriminate against anyone who is gay, and it doesn\'t mean I wouldn\'t proudly walk down the street

with someone who is gay for any other reason. Christian morals say you should not judge, because none of us is clean

enough to pass judgment.

Any person who hates, discriminates, or does violence to someone because that person is

gay is not acting along Christian morals anymore than if they were doing any of those things to someone because he

was a different race. A lot of people like to take Christian morals and twist them into something they\'re not, or

to use them for their own purposes. It still doesn\'t make it true.

<font br / br / class=\"post\">

I don\'t think sexual orientation is a choice. 10% of the population is gay. Sexual

orientation is thought to ne innate.

A zoologist friend of mine says that 10% of monkeys, among certain species

are also \"gay.\" The male homosexuals are the \"guard monkeys.\" Since they don\'t reproduce, they are on the

\"front lines.\" The \"lesbian\" females adopt orphaned babies.

[XarokLasa]

Quote:

Quote:
Jerry\'s Monologue:

What causes homophobia? What is it that makes a

heterosexual man worry? I think it\'s because men know that deep down we have weak sales resistance. We\'re

constantly buying shoes that hurt us, pants that don\'t fit right. Men think, \"Obviously I can be talked into

anything. What if I accidentally wander into some sort of homosexual store, thinking it\'s a shoe store, and the

salesman goes, \'Just hold this guy\'s hand, walk around the store a little bit, see how you feel. No

obligation, no pressure, just try it. Would you like to see him in a sandal?\'\"

<font br / br / class=\"post\">

I think most men who are homophobic are that way because they recognize the tendancy towards

homosexuality in themselves. There is no such thing as 100% straight or gay, it\'s all varying shades. Some men

are afraid of it and as a result hate it.

<font class=\"post\">

Exactly! It is said

that men tend to see sexual oreintation as balck-and-white, whereas women see it as more os a \"range.\"

[kjanyeaz1]

There\'s been a number of disagreements about the degree you can manipulate somebody, for instance

these instant get laid books. I\'d like to open a discussion on the subject.

There are many organizations that

teach salesmanship, persuasion and manipulation skills. They range from car and insurance sales organizations,

shrinks and SWAT teams to the CIA and the Mossad. The simple fact is that you can use various techniques to persuade

people to do pretty much anything in a relatively short period of time. There is a good reason that many states have

laws giving the consumer several days to back out of a transaction, the techniques work! That is not to say they

work on everybody or under all conditions, but if they work reliably 30% of the time, that\'s pretty good.

Ok,

what I want to know is why they will not work in a dating situation. Why do you feel it wouldn\'t work on you?

Have you ever bought anything through high pressure sales? How would the methods differ? Have you ever used these

techniques and have reportable results, both good and bad? How does this impact the likelihood of establishing a

long term relationship?

[P1international]

Your last paragraph, first sentence: \"Ok, what I want to know is why they will not work in a dating

situation.\" Again, I ask, why do you think those persuasion techniques in your intitial paragraph won\'t work

in a dating situation? I\'m just curious and not trying to be argumentative.

[Pashtet]

Quote:
Men had to be tough, masculine, never

cry, never show vulnerability, yada, yada for a long time.

<font class=\"post\">

Hey,

I\'m all about trying to open up, share feelings, and have a woman to cry on...but even the women believe this

male machismo thing because it\'s been drilled into society so much... I wouldn\'t want to come off as a

\"nancy boy\" wimp to Elana (joke from copulin thread) or any other of the lovely femininas here...

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

So I guess it\'s on with the \"Tests of

Masculinity\"...

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.............
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]



[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]Pancho [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[kjanyeaz1]

Quote:
Your last paragraph, first sentence:

\"Ok, what I want to know is why they will not work in a dating situation.\" Again, I ask, why do you think those

persuasion techniques in your intitial paragraph won\'t work in a dating situation? I\'m just curious and not

trying to be argumentative.

<font class=\"post\">

Like I said, I do believe that

some techniques will work. I also believe that much like high pressure sales techniques, there will be many cases of

buyers remorse and it will be detrimental to long term relationships. Many forum members do not believe they will

and I would like to know why. I would also like to know how they feel it would impact a long term

relationship.

Basically, I am fishing.

[LongaDonga]

Orthodox excluded because they are a different religion and I don\'t know where they stand.....The

Jewish religion doesn\'t care if someone is gay or not. It really is a non issue. There is no hell or punishment

in the Jewish religion and people are not considered sinful if they have a different sexual preference. Just wanted

to clear that up.

[Pashtet]

Jerry\'s Monologue:

What causes homophobia? What is it that makes a heterosexual man worry? I

think it\'s because men know that deep down we have weak sales resistance. We\'re constantly buying shoes that

hurt us, pants that don\'t fit right. Men think, \"Obviously I can be talked into anything. What if I

accidentally wander into some sort of homosexual store, thinking it\'s a shoe store, and the salesman goes,

\'Just hold this guy\'s hand, walk around the store a little bit, see how you feel. No obligation, no pressure,

just try it. Would you like to see him in a sandal?\'\"

[kjanyeaz1]

And the men\'s learned behavoir conflicts with what they feel inside. Causes all sorts of distress.

Ain\'t our Judio-Christian society\'s mores a wonderful thing?

[shieclulaweew]

I think that these articles, books, web pages and so on are a valuable read, but not for the most

obvious reason.

I have always been interested in understanding people, which led to a fleeting affair with

psychology and lasting interest in articles on the internet. A few of these included Doc Love\'s articles on

askmen.com and various seduction web sites. Some of them are an interesting read and highlight some important

principles in their various techniques. However, I have not once used any of their specific \"methods\" or

strategies, because no one lives by a script. We are talking about seducing women here, by nature the most

unpredictable creature on God\'s Earth. The way I have used these techniques is to figure them out on a very basic

level, and then after applying these ideas to practical experience you can \"program\" yourself to respond. The

emphasis there though is on \"practical experience\", which leads to another ailment of the male seduction system.

Most guys (that includes me) have no clue where to start, and these \"Seduction Manuals\" do have to good ideas to

start you off.

Check out www.fastseduction.com , it\'s one of the

best.

There are a few good threads around here somewhere, I\'ll try to dig some up.

[popandopulus]

All the scientific data everywhere (!), including pheromone studies, indicate basic sexual preference

is biologically determined, which makes God the only possible \"homosexual sinner\" in every reality equation!

It\'s all pretty well-detailed now, traced back to the moment of conception (hormone soup stuff) and beyond

(genetics). Just ask Jim Kohl about the pheromone research on homosexuality, for example. The everyday hormone

processes are also very different.

I usually shy away from discussing religion these days, after spending 14

tedious years at 2 Christian Universities (not to mention both Christian grade schools and high school), and then

teaching at a third one, but since there is nothing whatsoever in the Gospels negative toward homosexuality; and

given the theological controversies around the letters of Paul, etc.; and, since the old testament cannot

reasonably be taken literally (Given the horrendous literal things such as pillaging and plundering promoted

in certain places in the OT, we have to start with the OT as a collection of stories and histories about humans\'

relationships to God and go from there); it is more accurate to say that certain religious dogmas within

certain so-called Christian religions \"prohibit\" (ahem) homosexuality. \"Christianity\" per se is not

against being gay. There have always been many varieties of Christianity, many of which are fine with homosexuality,

and no evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was anti-gay. Some religious cultures, especially in the middle and southern

US, pridefully believe their brand of religious dogma is something like \"just real good \'ol basic

Christianity,\" when there is no such thing and never was. Christianity was originally some 200 (an educated guess

is all that\'s possible) fairly independent, loosely related sects, many with their own unique scriptures and

gospels. A good bit of variety remains (There are still active Essene or Gnostic branches, for example. And the

Orthodox religion is arguably the oldest, most traditional existing version of Christianity (not a different faith

altogether!), the religion from which the most popular branches of Christianity, including Baptists and Catholics,

all sprang).

Given the unambiguous science, it getting harder for aware Christians to deny, without

psychologically lobotomizing themselves (but never underestimate the power of denial among the religious), that

hating homosexuality is equivalent to hating the Divine gift of sexuality, which is equivalent to hating God in the

moment one has such a thought. As far as anyone can know at this time, the anti-homosexuality dogma is itself

sinful. By straightforward theological reasoning, antigay dogma violates Christianity at it\'s very center --

Jesus\' own repeated proclamation of the two \"highest\" commandments. \"Anti-gay\" is no more Christian than

Al Quaida is Muslim!

Interestingly, the clergyman who is president of the largest Christian

University in Oregon is gay as a three dollar bill (I knew him when he was a younger, more flaming unknown, and had

him as a teacher), and almost no one knows it or talks about it. It\'s hilarious to watch him running around now

trying to act macho now that he has political power.

[shieclulaweew]

Too much like hard work, just do a search for \"seduction\"

But this one by Andy stood out in my

mind:



web page

[kjanyeaz1]

Pancho,

No problem, I asked my question trying to encourage wide ranging discussion. And it is an

interesting conversation, in any case.

Salesmanship has never been one of my strong points for the same reasons

as yours. Blunt is good, it saves all sorts of misunderstandings later on. In person, I am a soft spoken gentleman

who never pushes but never follows either. I am almost always cheerful and laugh and joke about most everything. My

approach to women is simple, they are either willing to meet me as an equal without games or I\'ll go elsewhere.

If I am interested in a woman I show it but I am nice to everybody. If a woman does not want a relationship with me,

no problem.

Several of my employees are salespeople and they try to use their tactics on women with varying

success. Overall, they seem to cause themselves more grief than good. That, and some of the threads in this forum

are what generated my original question, which is still unanswered.