[skupaemauto]

there is absolutely no difference in a $2500 macbook pro and a $1000 windows laptop.... the remaining $1500 is spent on a name. on top of that, all the mac owners i know generally turn very assholish and snobby

They usually do not TURN that way!

But no, Apple does not = snobs. It usually means people who are eitehr unfamiliar or uncomfortable with technology. I have seen many that have jobs that use Apple, or who purchase it for home and the vibe is essentially the same.

A desire to make the computer "feel" better.

I have to say that they are GREAT with marketing and ergonomic design (mainly looks, not function). Their IPod was a revolution, and the computers follow much the same. But when you design a computer to look good, some things are left behind (such as expandability, the Mini being one example and that half-sphere thing being another).

So the one thing that has been the boon of Apple for so long has been its demographics general ignorance of technical matters. When your ads focus more on a teenage girl going "like" about her problems with "like" PC's, or implying that all PC users are that guy from the Daily Show (sellout) you can tell they are not concerned with marketing an actual product, but a brand name.

And they have succeeded. To the point where they can charge more for similar hardware than any other company on the market.

Am I saying that Apple is BAD? No, just that you usually do not get what you pay for, unless you are paying for their commercials.

Those things get expensive!!!!!

[tetMitshisk]

I don't agree with Philvia's numbers, but right out of the box, across the spectrum, PCs are less expensive than Macs. Stands to reason; the marketplace is competitive.

And the more you learn about computers and how to set them up, the bigger the difference.

[Drugmachine]

I know nothing about technology and how computers work and I don't want to know. And I use the computer all day long... my work depends on it and is very computer intensive.

I also know nothing about washing machines, electric lights, cell phones, and gas ovens. And I use them too.. and my life depends on them also.

I want to throw on a switch and the thing... whether it's the dryer or the computer... is working and doing what I want.

In the early days of motoring, all motorists were mechanics.... not today... and so I don't care to be a computer mechanic. The whole concept is old. And computers are not my hobby either.

I want to plug the thing in and use the internet or whatever. Immediately. No fuss.

And that's why I like the Mac... it's all there... I don't have to shop around.. I don't have to know anything... I don't care about Ubuntu or other Linux compilations (whatever they may be). My new Whirlpool washer has Calypso Wash Motion Technology rather than... uh I don't know.... and I don't care about that either.

The Mac costs more. So? A Mercedes costs more than a Honda. They both get you there. Consumer Reports may well tell you the Honda is better. Guess what? I'll take the Mercedes.

And BTW: I've been very assholish and snobby since I was a kid and we got color television. Getting a Mac has had nothing to do with it.

---

[Srewxardsasv]

The Dell XPS M1530 Laptop ($949)
- Intel Core 2 Duo T6400 (2.0GHz/800Mhz FSB/2MB cache)
- Glossy, widescreen 15.4 inch LCD (1280x800 pixels)
- 3GB DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz
- NVIDIA GeForce 8400M GS with 128MB GDDR3 memory
- Plastic case

MacBook Pro ($2499)
- Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 (2.53GHz/1066MHz FSB/3MB cache)
- 15.4-inch LED-backlit glossy widescreen (1440 x 900 pixels)
- 4GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM
- NVIDIA GeForce 9400M and 9600M GT with 256MB and 512MB of GDDR3 memory
- Illuminated keyboard
- Aluminum case

The MacBook Pro has a faster processor, faster front side bus, and larger cache. The MacBook Pro uses an LED backlit screen which is brighter and has better color reproduction than the CCFL backlit screen of the Dell. The MacBook screen also has a higher pixel density than the Dell's screen.

The MacBook has 1GB more RAM and uses the faster 1066MHz, the Dell uses 667MHz RAM. The MacBook uses two graphics cards, the Nvidia 9400M and 9600M GT. Both graphics cards are much faster have have more dedicated memory than the Nvidia 8400M GS the Dell uses.

The body of the Dell's case is made of several plastic parts. The MacBook Pro body is made from a solid block of machined aluminum. To machine a laptop body from a solid block of aluminum is far more expensive than a laptop made of plastic parts.

there is absolutely no difference in a $2500 macbook pro and a $1000 windows laptop.... the remaining $1500 is spent on a name. on top of that, all the mac owners i know generally turn very assholish and snobby

[wmhardware]

I know nothing about technology and how computers work and I don't want to know.

I would recommend a Mac to anyone who doesn't want to know about computers, and a PC for the opposite end of the spectrum. For the middle ground, it doesn't make a difference, except price.

In the early days of motoring, all motorists were mechanics.... not today... and so I don't care to be a computer mechanic. The whole concept is old. I drive a manual transmission, and know about the mechanics (physical forces) of a car. The stick shift keeps me attentive, and the mechanics helps me drive better.

The Mac costs more. So? A Mercedes costs more than a Honda. They both get you there. Consumer Reports may well tell you the Honda is better. Guess what? I'll take the Mercedes. Poor analogy.

What costs more, a modern Mercedes or this? but which is the better performing car.

Macs are more expensive because of market conditions.

[DP5Ups8o]

Ten, like we said, not the best comparison.....

Laptops are a bit closer in price generally because of the market they are being sold to. But even then, there are powerhouses (gaming laptops) that were produced a while ago that would give much more for the $ than a similar Mac counterpart.

They were not as pretty, and they were definitely bulkier, but they just DID more.

Now, as for Dell, HP, Sony and others. You are pretty much relegated to them for Laptops, but not so for Computers. As I said in the beginning, I put together a $700 one that only required knowledge of what fit in what and how to insert a disk. If you ask on a forum, you can probably get a techie to give you a good set of parts, which you order and snap ogether when you get home. You pop in the disk and install Windows. And that's it.

Everything else you need to install can be good or bad depending on the manufacturer, but that is just it. More peopel design for the PC than the Mac. You have 5 different audio copilation suites rather than 1 or 2, and they are cheaper. You have to do a bit of legwrk sometimes to find out what may work better for you, but you do not need to get a degree to do so.

So if you want a box, and you are not worried about how it matches your living room decor, you can save a bundle on making one yourself (and keeping it simple). You do not need to liquid cool, overclock, double (SLI/Shotgun) your video or any other techie thing. If you know how to follow instructions (plug this into this, plug that in, turn on) you would be fine.


If you DON'T want any of this, and are an absolute technophobe, the extra money might be worth it for you to get something that has, if you will pardon the analogy, chewed up and partially digested for you to easily consume.

The analogy stops there, as Apple has always looked better than the PC's....

As for these "I don't want to know how a dishwasher works" and "Honda vs. Merceded" analogies, they are really ill suited.

Why did people pay more for Ford pickups than Chevy or Toyota? The quality was just not there! You got less for more based on name alone and what people "felt" better with. Also, when was the last time you could open up your dishwasher in 5 minutes, pop something out and replace it with something and get it to make your dishes twice as clean in half the time? (Again, maybe about 15 minutes total).

Realize that using a PC does not mean you have to be a Guru. It is just more accomodating to you if you are!

Anywho...........

[Yb4bulVR]

None that you build yourself or get with the right discount.

In the PC world its true you are able to shop around quite a bit more and find some deals. But still to find a PC that has specifications that match a typical Mac will cost you $1000 to $2000.

I'm not a fan of building PC's. The people I've seen do that like to troubleshoot and service their own machines. For those of us who don't want to be bothered with that, its best to buy a machine with a warranty and customer support.

I know more than you think, such as how Intel is now doing the chips inside the Mac.... Yes Apple is using Intel or Intel compatible components. The thing you have to understand is that Intel makes numerous types of chips and they all have various different capabilities and prices. Those $500 PC's are not using the same components that are used in a $1500 Mac.

Mac is, was and as far as I can tell, will be more expensive for what you get. Also, with a PC, you are not forced to one OS. You CAN get Ubuntu or other Linux compilations, but that is another matter. Mac's can run Windows and Linux too. The Mac is the only computer that can run OS X, Windows, and Linux all on the same machine.

Apple is very much like Sony in that it relies on name-brand recognition to sell hardware. Also, it is VERY proprietary when it comes to peripherals (it was only recently that they started going 3rd party for things like video cards... Ithink they now have ATI doing this, but I will have to double check). Before Apple switched to the Intel's x86 architecture it was using an IBM processor architecture called Power PC. They needed some slightly different components because Power PC is different from Intel's x86.

I'm not sure what you mean by Apple using proprietary peripherals. The Mac uses Firewire and USB ports just like PC's. Anything you plug into a PC you can plug into a Mac.

Apple has always been using ATI and NVIDIA graphic cards. The Mac needed different firmware and drivers than PC's.

Teno, just be careful when you start saying things like "some PC's are just as expensive as some Mac's", you know that that is an ill-suited and very loose comparison! PC manufacturers advertise their cheapest machines. What you need to do is look at how a Mac is configured and then configure a PC to those same specifications and you will clearly see that the PC is no cheaper and can be more expensive.

[NEWyear]

PC manufacturers advertise their cheapest machines. What you need to do is look at how a Mac is configured and then configure a PC to those same specifications and you will clearly see that the PC is no cheaper and can be more expensive.

That is simply not true, unless you don't know what you're doing.

[KuevDulin]

I would recommend a Mac to anyone who doesn't want to know about computers, and a PC for the opposite end of the spectrum. For the middle ground, it doesn't make a difference, except price.

That's a pretty big generalization. You think Mac people know nothing about computers? And PC people know about computers?

Macs are more expensive because of market conditions. No, Mac's are more expensive because Apple does not play in the low margin commodity market.

[RadcliffXX]

It is true. When you look at Dell and HP. You see $500 and $600 machines. Those are not the same machines as the $1500 - $2000 Mac.

That is simply not true, unless you don't know what you're doing.

[MartZubok]

You think Mac people know nothing about computers? And PC people know about computers?

Read the post again. Did I say that? Or was it that the price differential will diminish as PC users become less knowledgable?

Stop being so defensive, and drop the Mac cult nonsense.

[c-cialis]

It is true. When you look at Dell and HP. You see $500 and $600 machines. Those are not the same machines as the $1500 - $2000 Mac.

You're not even bothering to read what I post. I stated that I didn't agree with Philvia's numbers.

If Macs were twice the price of comparable PCs, they'd be out of business.

[Lymnempomma]

Ten, like we said, not the best comparison.....

Well, show me a different comparison.

Laptops are a bit closer in price generally because of the market they are being sold to. But even then, there are powerhouses (gaming laptops) that were produced a while ago that would give much more for the $ than a similar Mac counterpart. The two laptops I shown are not close in price. I showed what made them different.

You are right Dell used to produce XPS gaming laptops that cost as much as $4000. They must not have sold well because I don't see them anymore.

They were not as pretty, and they were definitely bulkier, but they just DID more. Usefulness can be relative. If you have a laptop that weighs 10 pounds, 3 inches thick, and only has a half hour of battery life. It may be faster than other laptops, but ultimately how useful is it.

Now, as for Dell, HP, Sony and others. You are pretty much relegated to them for Laptops, but not so for Computers. As I said in the beginning, I put together a $700 one that only required knowledge of what fit in what and how to insert a disk. If you ask on a forum, you can probably get a techie to give you a good set of parts, which you order and snap ogether when you get home. You pop in the disk and install Windows. And that's it. Yes I know you can build a PC for cheap. The point is you are not building a PC for $700 using the same components used in a typical Mac. Nor are you able to build the same quality case design as the Mac.

Everything else you need to install can be good or bad depending on the manufacturer, but that is just it. More peopel design for the PC than the Mac. You have 5 different audio copilation suites rather than 1 or 2, and they are cheaper. You have to do a bit of legwrk sometimes to find out what may work better for you, but you do not need to get a degree to do so. In reality more software options brings diminishing returns. Most of that software is crap. People are generally all using the same software because it is the best of what it does. The most popular software generally has both Mac and PC versions.

If you DON'T want any of this, and are an absolute technophobe, the extra money might be worth it for you to get something that has, if you will pardon the analogy, chewed up and partially digested for you to easily consume. I'm not sure how you partially digest a computer platform. The Mac and PC have simply been designed differently, with different priorities.

[tobia]

That did not appear to be the context of your statement. Read literally as was stated, you are saying you would recommend Mac's to people who don't want to know about computers, PC's to the other side of the spectrum.

I don't feel I'm being overly biased towards Apple. I'm trying to explain the simple truth. The truth is that Apple's computers are far more expensive than cheap PC's. Apple computers are not more expensive than PC's that have the same technical capabilities of the Mac.

Does explaining that make me an over zealous Apple fanboy?

Read the post again. Did I say that? Or was it that the price differential will diminish as PC users become less knowledgable?

Stop being so defensive, and drop the Mac cult nonsense.

[greeferweq]

That did not appear to be the context of your statement. Read literally as was stated, you are saying you would recommend Mac's to people who don't want to know about computers, PC's to the other side of the spectrum.

Yes, read literally - if someone asked me for advice, I would take their level of computer knowledge into consideration in making a choice. That doesn't imply that Mac owners don't know about computers.

Does explaining that make me an over zealous Apple fanboy? No. But misreading my comment makes me think you're going in that direction.

[dushappeaps]

I apologize, I misunderstood your point. But I do know people who are big computer geeks and love the Mac. The big difference for them is that they love OS X over Windows.

Yes, read literally - if someone asked me for advice, I would take their level of computer knowledge into consideration in making a choice. That doesn't imply that Mac owners don't know about computers.

No. But misreading my comment makes me think you're going in that direction.

[picinaRefadia]

I'm not a technophobe, but neither do I want to have to understand how each and every little thing inside & connected to the computer works -- although a friend is teaching me essential and helpful stuff in slow spurts, giving me just as much info as my brain can absorb at any given time. A fewweeks in and it's all making sense.

The big selling point for me was the proximity to the Apple Store. The workshops are helpful (although they are mostly sales presentations disguised as a Class) and the weekly One to One sessions are proving really beneficial.

And my Mac sits out in the open in my main room -- and she's lovely to look at. Call me shallow, but I'm a sucker for a pretty face.

[Accecyncphory]

Lofter: Be mindful of heat issues.

It's not a Mac thing; the same overheating problems have been reported about Sony all-in one's. That aluminum case isn't to make it pretty; it's a heat-sink.

If you have a halogen lamp sitting close by, replace it with cooler light.

[deermealec]

Thanks for the tip -- no such lamp in the vicinity.

[Sertvfdnhgjk]

Teno, first, Apple has been talking about switching from ATI to Nvidia. I googled and have been looking for articles that say otehrwise, but I could not find any (too broad a search topic). Also, they were not always that way. I remember maybe about 5 or so years ago (maybe more) when they announced that tehy would NOW be accepting cards made by ATI.

So no, as far as I have heard, they were not always compatible.

As for troubleshooting, that IS a concern, but a lot of times it just is not a problem. If you go for a simple build, you don't NEED to troubleshoot. Not only that, some problems are as simple as posting to a board and waiting for an answer. So far my Shuttle has had no problems with it since it was built. Should I have paid an extra $150 for service I have not used?

As for "usefulness" you are sidestepping the issue. I am not talking about how handy a machine is, that was not my comparison. If you want a gaming machine, Apple simply does not do it. High end graphics are a toss up, but you can usually get more for less from PC, but they are less concerned (in general) with looks than horse power.

Also, the term "usefulness" is an unreliable term for comparison in that it is subject to personal beliefs and, more importantly, feelings. You can say that flip-flops, in some cases, are more "useful" than sneakers, but I am not going running in sandals.


As for the $500/$1500 comparison, I never said they were using the same, just that, in general, you get more for your money with PC's. You keep going back to a comparison that both Zip and I have refuted ourselves as a counter claim to the cost differences between the two machine types. This does not strengthen your argument against us, as we agree that that comparison, in particular, is not valid.

Peripherals = Internal HD, Memory, Sound Cards, Video Cards, or anything else that interfaces directly with the motherboards. (at least, that was what I was meaning when I labeled them as such)

Not a USB or FireWire external peripheral.

As for PC makers showing their cheapest, you are sidestepping again.

If you knew what really mattered under the hood and did not count on $1000 for seat warmers (car analogy) you would realize that you still can get computers for slightly less from Dell, HP and other name-brand Mfr's.

Why? Because their brand name does not allow them to rack up their % as much as Apple's does. Apple has a better marketing campaign and, in general, less technically informed individuals that buy from them. This allows them, as a smaller company, to boost their profit per machine.

I have never been a fan of Dell, Gateway or HP anyway. And I can say that for any but the bottom tier machines (clearance) you can definitely build something for yourself for less (much less as the price gets higher...).

You want a file server on your network? Get a NAS card and a cheap Dell on clearance and have something set up on your home net that can store several terrabytes of info, keep it backed up (RAID 5) AND access it faster than a bunch of external drives on a USB hub.

Sorry, that was a bit techie. Bottom line is, you can get a box really cheap from the name-brand people, and cheaper in general than from Apple at any level (more so the cheaper you go). You can get REALLY cheap if you go for something powerful you assemble yourself without having to get a stroke putting it together.


If you really want me to start making more comparisons, I will. But you are taking things that do not have a direct relation and trying to say that since they do not directly relate, other comparisons that resemble them also do not relate. That was my gyst.

As for the bad comparison, like i said WAY back in here, Zip and I do not agree with what (forgot his name) said in comparing a $1000 machine to a $2500 one.

You could probably find one, with discounts from the thread I posted earlier (pricegrabber? Fatwallet?) for about $2300 that would do what the apple does at $2500....

But, like I said, laptops are the narrowest field for comparison (since you really can't build your own). Also, high end name-brand machines are notoriously overpriced by all companies (probably to cover cost and possible loss from devaluation of existing stock). So comparisons of high-end laptops is probably not the best way to go!