[plogypeskelry]

Mufti Sahib for that, but i have stumbled across a fatwa of Dr GF Haddad on this, maybe you can analyze what he quoted:

http://www.abc.se/~m9783/fiqhi/fiqha_e30.html

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I don't believe the first thing Allah(swt) created was the nur of the prophet. I think it is exaaggeration that stems from the love of the prophet.

Anyway was not the first thing Allah(Swt) created the throne?

[uneniaPhenits]

Ghumari (`Abd Allah) in his Irshad al-talib al-najib ila ma fi al-mawlid al-nabawi min al-akadhib (p. 9-12 of the Dar al-furqan edition), commenting on Suyuti's words (quoted below) whereby the hadith has no reliable chain:

“It is mentioned in Diyarbakri's Tarikh, and anyone who reads it will be convinced that the hadith is a lie about the Messenger of Allah."

This exaggerated conclusion is disproved by the fact that Diyarbarkri himself does not consider it a lie since he cites the hadith in the first words of his book:


Diyarbakri (Husayn ibn Muhammad d. 966): He begins his 1,000-page history entitled Tarikh al-khamis fi ahwal anfasi nafis with the words: "Praise be to Allah Who created the Light of His Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam) before everything else,

Note:
Which is enough to disprove al-Ghumari's exaggerated claim that "anyone who reads it will be convinced that the hadith is a lie."

Please explain this “amazing logic”:

Gilani (Shaykh `Abd al-Qadir, d. 561) in his book Sirr al-asrar fi ma yahtaju ilayh al-abrar (p. 12-14 of the Lahore edition) said:

"Know that since Allah first created the soul of Muhammad from the light of His beauty, as He said: I created Muhammad from the light of My Face, and as the Prophet said: The first thing Allah created is my soul, and the first thing Allah created is the Pen, and the first thing Allah created is the intellect -- what is meant by all this is one and the same thing, and that is the haqiqa muhammadiyya.

However, it was named a light because it is completely purified from darkness, as Allah said: There has come to you from Allah a Light and a manifest Book. It was also named an intellect because it is the cause for the transmission of knowledge, and the pen is its medium in the world of letters.

The Muhammadan soul (al-ruh al-muhammadiyya) is therefore the quintessence of all created things and the first of them and their origin, as the Prophet said: I am from Allah and the believers are from me, and Allah created all souls from me in the spiritual world and He did so in the best form. It is the name of the totality of mankind in that primordial world, and after its creation by four thousand years, Allah created the Throne from the light of Muhammad himself , and from it the rest of creation." This book has now been translated by Shaykh Tosun Bayrak al-Jerrahi as The Secret of Secrets (Cambridge: Islamic Texts Society, 1994).

"Hadith of Jabir" by GF Haddad
http://www.abc.se....html


---------------------------------------------


Ibn Kathir states in his Tafsir:

"His saying: and a light-giving lamp, that is: your status shows in the truth you have brought just as the sun shows in its rising and illuminating, which none denies except the obdurate."

"Before you came into the world, you were under the leaves of Heaven's trees.Prophet Adam alayhis 'salam covering his body with the leaves of Heavenly trees [when his heavenly clothes were taken off him]

Before Adam came into the world ,your (nur) was transferred upon his forehead.

Through Adam you came into the world, but at the time you were not human, nor a piece of flesh, not even a drop of blood.
But at the time you were only (nur) in your fore-father's back.
And when others were drowning your fore-father, Nuh, boarded the boat.
After coming off the boat your (nur) was transferred from one clean woman to another Until you came into the back of Prophet Ibrahim alayhis 'salam. How can the fire burn him while you were in his back?

Then you travelled into Khindaf, who was also a clean woman.
That is how you kept travelling forward, until the time of your birth came. When you were born, the Earth and the edge of the sky, all shone as they never did from your nur. We are still travelling under the same guidance of that nur'"

[Narrated and certified by Ibn 'Abdu'l-Barr, Qadi 'Iyad in ash-Shifa, Ibn Athir, Tabarani; Ibn Qayyim in Zad-ul-Ma'ad, vol.3, page10; Ibn Kathir in Ta'rikh, at the end of chapter 'Gazwa-e- Tabuk'; and Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab an-Najdi in Mukhtasar Sirat ar-Rasul. Ibn Kathir, Sirat an-Nabi; Ibn al-Athir, Us-dul Gabah; al-'Asqalani, al-Asaba; Ibn 'Abd'il-Barr, al-Isti'ab, biography of'Hoorainm Ibn Oas'; Hafiz adh-Dhahabi, Talkees Mustadrak; Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi, Nashrut Teeb]

Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab writes:
"There is a hadith in which Rasulu'llah(may Allah bless him and grant him peace) stated:

'I was a Prophet even when Adam (peace be upon him) was between clay and water
[i.e. in the process of being created]

[Hadith transmitted by at-Tirmidhi, Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab, Mukhtasar Sirat ar-Rasul;, al-Bayhaqi, Ahmad, al-Hakim and adh-adh-Dhahabi declare it to be sahih]

When Imaam Nawawi was asked about the hadith" The Quest for Knowledge is Obligatory on every Muslim.

"He said this hadith is weak, though its meaning is True."

The Ahaadeeth, "Allaah says, ‘were it not for you (O Muhammad ) I would not have created the universe.’"

Ibn Taymiyya said the meaning of this hadith was true.

And this saying about the Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam) being created before Adam is well known and it comes form many traditions and from many great muhaddiths:

1. "I am the first Prophet to be created and the last one to be sent."
2. "I was a Prophet while Adam (alayhis 'salam) was still between the spirit and the body."
3. "I was a Prophet while Adam (alayhis 'salam) was still between water and clay."

Imam Taj al-Din al-Subki said:"It has been said that God created spirits before bodies, and the Prophet's (Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam) reference to hisprophecy in the hadith, "I was a Prophet while Adam alayhis 'salam was still..." may be a reference to his blessedspirit and to the Reality of realities (haqiqat al-haqa'iq). Our minds fall short of knowing such aReality, but its Creator knows it, and also those to whom he extends the light of that knowledge."God brings to existence whichever of these realities He likes in the time that He pleases. As for thereality of the Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam), it is most likely that it was before the creation of Adam, and God gave itits prophetic attribute upon its creation; already at that time, he was the Prophet."

Quoted by Suyuti in al-Hawi lil-Fatawi, Beirut (!975) 2:100-101.

Qadi `Iyad said in his masterpiece al-Shifa', the Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam) was outwardly human and inwardly angelic.

Hafiz Ibn Kathir writes:
"Muhammad ibn Hamza (may Allah be pleased with him) narrates that 'Once Rasulu'llah (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) made my fingers glow with light.'

[Ibn Kathir, Sirat an-Nabi,, chapter on 'Mu'jizat']

Hafiz Ibn Kathir states that:
"When the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) was born, the King of Abyssinia witnessed the nur of the Messenger (may Allah bless him and grant him peace)"
[Ta'rikh Ibn Kathir, chapter on 'Milad an-Nabi', vol. 2]


Hafiz Ibn Kathir writes:
"Whilst 'Abd al-Muttalib was walking with his son ''Abdullah, a woman saw a light on the forehead of 'Abdullah. She approached them and offered one hundred camels so that 'Abdullah may marry her but they refused her offer. Some time after his marriage to Amina, 'Abdullah again confronted this woman but this time she made no offers to marry him and said: 'The nur upon your forehead is no longer present' "

[Ibn Kathir, Ta'rikh Ibn Kathir, vol. 2., and Sirat an-Nabi; Ibn Jarir, at-Tabari chapter on 'Milad an-Nabi']

Hafiz Ibn Kathir writes
'The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) said:'I am the prayer of Ibrahim (peace be upon him) and the prophecy of 'Isa (peace be upon him). When my mother was pregnant she witnessed so much light from her body that she could see the palaces of Syria.'
[Ibn Kathir, Sirat an-Nabi, vol.2; Shaykh Najdi, Muktasar Sirat ar-Rasul]


Please explain this “amazing logic”?

[Wdlglivi]

The Ghumari brothers, Ahmed and Abd Allah, are two who classified it as fabricated, with Abd Allah writing a booklet to prove its fabrication, titled "Murshid al-Ha'ir".


And Allah Ta'ala knows best

I have came across English translation of Murshid al-Ha'ir li-Bayan Wad` Hadith Jabir by Abu Al-Fadl Abdullah ibn Al-Siddiq Al-Ghumari.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Murshid al-Ha'ir li-Bayan Wad` Hadith Jabir

(The Guide of the Confused Questioner to the Fabrication of the Hadith of Jabir)
Murshid al-Ha'ir li-Bayan Wad` Hadith Jabir

Authored by: Abu Al-Fadl Abdullah ibn Al-Siddiq Al-Ghumari (died 1413H)

In the Name of Allâh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

All the praises and thanks be to Allâh, I thank Him, seek His assistance and depend on Him […], and May the Peace and Blessings of Allah be on our leader/master Muhammad, the slave of Allah, and His Messenger. He (Allah) gave him wisdom, with which he opened blind eyes, and [opened] sealed hearts and deaf ears. And [May Allah’s peace and blessings be] on [prophet Muhammad’s] [noble] household and companions, and May Allah be pleased with those who follow him [Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salam] with Ihsan.

After which [I say],

This is a chapter I called: “Murshid al-Ha'ir li-Bayan Wad` Hadith Jabir” (The Guide of those confused to the fabrication of the hadith of Jabir).

I wished by writing it to clear the Holy Messenger [Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salam] from what has been attributed to him, from that which was found to be untrue and is considered from the inappropriate excessiveness.

Yet [this inappropriate excessiveness] is considered among the laymen as well as among several scholars as one of his Prophetic virtues which rejecting is considered [by them] as being slanderous towards him [Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salam].

They fail to see what is in their view and words from great sin [and promised punishment], which has been established by the words of the Holy Messenger [Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salam]: “Whoever tells lies about me, let him take his place in Hell” [1].

And whoever describes him [salah Allah ‘alaihi wa salam] with whatever has not been found authentic, then he is considering lying about him and has entered into the warning, unless he repents. And the fact that he said this [lie] to praise him [salah Allah ‘alaihi wa salam], is not a sufficient excuse to intercede for him, for what he had done.

And even though leniency is acceptable when it comes to mentioning virtues, however the Virtues of Prophet Muhammad [Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salam] should be restricted to what has been proven and authentic out of fear of Lying [about him] that has been threatened with the [punishment of] the Fire, from which we ask Allah’s protection.

Void and False traditions (Ahadeeth Baatilah) have been narrated about this topic, and several strange/weird (Shaazah) views have come up that are free from any proper examination, which I will clarify and point out in this Chapter by the Will of Allah.

`Abd al-Razzaq narrates –as they claim- that Jabir [May Allah be pleased with him] said:

"I said: O Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be sacrificed for you, tell me of the first thing Allah created before all things”. He said: "O Jabir, the first thing Allah created was the light of your Prophet from His light, and that light remained (lit or "turned") in the midst of His Power for as long as He wished, and there was not, at that time, a Tablet or a Pen or a Paradise or a Fire or an angel or a heaven or an earth or a sun or a moon or a jinn or a man.

And when Allah wished to create creation, he divided that Light into four parts and from the first made the Pen, from the second the Tablet, from the third the Throne, and then he divided the fourth [part] into four [other] parts and from the first he created the bearer of the Throne, from the second the Chair (Kursi), from the third the rest of the angels. Then He divided the fourth into four other parts and created from the first the heavens, and from the second the earth, and from the third the Paradise and the Fire, and then he divided the fourth into four parts and created from the first the Light in the believers visions, and from the second the light of their hearts which is knowledge of Allah, and from the third the light of their inner harmony (‘Uns) which is the Tawheed ‘There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, etc. …”.

The tradition has a long continuation, and was mentioned in its entirety by Ibn al-‘Arabi al-Hatimi in his book “Talqeeh Al-Azhaan wa Muftaah Ma’rifat Al-Insaan”, and al-Diyarbakri in his book “Tarikh Al-Khamis fi Ahwal Anfasi Nafis”.

And its attribution to the narration of ‘Abd al-Razzaq is a mistake since it does not exist either in his Musanaf, or his Jami’, or his Tafsir [2].

Al-Hafiz al-Suyuti said in “al-Hawi” [3]: “It does not have a chain that one can depend on”.

It is certainly a fabricated tradition, and it contains Sufi terminologies, and some modern Shanqitis (people of Chinguetti) has attached to it a chain, and mention that ‘Abd al-Razzaq narrates it from the way of Ibn al-Munkadr from Jabir and this is a lie that [he who said it] will be sinned for.

In general this hadith is a Rejected (Munkar) Fabricated (Mawdoo’) [tradition] with no basis (La Aslah Lah) in the books of Sunnah [4].

Similar to it in Falsehood and Rejection (Nakarah) what was narrated through the way of Ali ibn Al-Husien from his father from his grandfather [‘Alaihim Al-Salam] that the Holy Messenger [Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salam] said: “I was light between the hands of my Lord before Adam was created by 14,000 years” and this is also a lie.

And from among the foolish lies what is said that one of the Mothers of the Believers wanted to place a Cloth (Eizar) on the body of the Holy Messenger [Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salam], but it fell i.e. because he is light, and that too has no basis. And the Holy Messenger [Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salam] used to wear Eizars and it didn’t fall from him.

He [Salah Allah ‘alaihi wa Salam] being described as light is something Ma’nawi, similar to the Quran being described as light, since he is light for the minds and hearts [as is the Quran].

And from the Exposed Lies is their saying: Lawlak Lawlak Ma Khalaqt Al-Aflaak (meaning “Were it not for you, the universe [lit. heavenly bodies] would not have been created) [5], also what is narrated from Ali –‘Alaihi Al-Salam- that Messenger –Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salam- said: Gibreal descended to me and said: ‘Allah is sending you His Salam, and says: “I have forbidden Fire on a Sulb that released you, and a womb that carried you, and a hijr that sponsored you” and it is a fabricated tradition.

Some of the books about the (innovated) Prophetic Mawlid narrate from the way of Abu Huraira that he said: Prophet Muhammad –salah Allah ‘alaihi wa salam- asked Gibreal [alaihi alsalam]: O Gibreal, how old are you? He replied: O Prophet of Allah, I do not know except that in the fourth Hijab there is a star that appears once every 70,000 years. I have seen that star 72,000 times.

Prophet Muhammad said: By the Glory of my Lord, I am that heavenly body.

And this is a Disgraceful Lie, May Allah disgrace he who fabricated it.

Some of the extreme Sufis [6] mention that Gibreal [‘alaihi alsalam] used to receive revelation from behind a veil. Once he was able to see what is behind this veil, and he found out that it is Prophet Muhammad [salah Allah ‘alaihi wa salam] that was giving him this revelation, at that point Gibreal said: [It comes] from you, [and goes] to you.

I said: May Allah curse he who fabricated this foolishness that is contrary to the Quran. Allah –the Exalted- says to his Prophet: {And thus We have sent to you (O Muhammad) a Ruh (a Revealation, and a Mercy) of Our Command. You knew not what is the Book, nor what is Faith} [Surat Al-Shura 42:52], and He says: {The trustworthy Ruh [Jibril (Gibreal)] has brough it down * Upon your heart (O Muhammad) that you may be (one) of the warners} [Surat Al-Shu’ara 26:193-194].

Imam Ahmad, Al-Hakim, and Al-Bayhaqi in “Al-Dalael” [7] narrate that Al-‘Irbad ibn Sariya [May Allah be pleased with him] said: I heard the Prophet of Allah [Peace be upon him] saying: “Verily, I was written [in Umm Al-Kitab] in Allah’s presence as the Seal of the Prophets, while Adam was still kneaded in his clay, and I will tell you the meaning of this: [I am] The supplication of my father Ibrahim, and the good tidings of ‘Isa to his people, and the dream my mother saw that light came out of her illuminating the castles of al-Shaam (Damascus/Syria), and like that is what the mother’s of the Messengers see”.

Al-Haythami said in “Majma’ Al-Zawaid” [8]: “Narrated by Ahmad with [several chains], and Al-Bazaar [9], and Al-Tabarani with its similarity, and in one of the chains of Imam Ahmad the narrators in it are those of the authentic, with the exception of Sa’eed ibn Suwaid, but ibn Hiban rated him as reliable [10]”.

I said: It was narrated by Al-Hakim from the way of Abi Bakr ibn Abi Maryam, from Suwaid ibn Sa’eed, from Al-‘Irbaad ibn Sariyah, and he (Al-Hakim) said: “Its chain is authentic”, but Al-Dhahabi followed-up on what Al-Hakim said, and said that Abi Bakr is weak [11]. Dr. Qal’agi the examiner of the book “Dalael Al-Nubuwah” did a mistake when he said that Al-Dhahabi agreed with Al-Hakim in his authentication. Imam Ahmad [12] narrated from the way of Budail, from Abdullah ibn Shaqiq, from Maysarat Al-Fajr that he said: “I said: O Prophet of Allah, when were you a Prophet? He said: While Adam was still between the spirit and the body”.

That is how Al-Baghawi and Ibn Al-Sakan narrated it in “Al-Sahabah”.

Al-Hafiz said [13]: and that is a strong chain.

I said: And Al-Bukhari mentions it in “Al-Tareekh” without mentioning the top of the chain (Mu’alaqan) [14].

Al-Hakim narrates [15] from Abu Huraira [May Allah be pleased with him] that he said: “It was said to the Messenger [Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa salam]: When was Prophethood assigned to you? He replied: between the creation of Adam, and the time his soul was breathed into him”.

And Imam Ahmad narrates [16] from the way of Abdulla ibn Shaqiq, from a man that said: “I said: O Prophet of Allah, when were you made a Prophet? He said: When Adam was between the soul and the body”. Al-Haythami said [17]: Its men are the men of the authentic.

I said: And it is one of the ways of the hadith of Maysarah Al-Fajr.

And Ibn Sa’ad said in al-Tabaqat [18]: We were told by ‘Afaan ibn Muslim and ‘Amr ibn ‘Aasim al-Kalbi, they said: we were told by Hamad ibn Salamah, from Khalid al-Haza, from Abdullah ibn Shaqiq, from Abdullah ibn Abi al-Ga’daa, he said: “I said: O Prophet of Allah, when were you a Prophet? He said: Since Adam was between the soul and the body”. Its men are the men of the authentic.

Al-Bazaar narrates [19], and Al-Tabari [20] with a weak chain from Ibn ‘Abbas [May Allah be pleased with them] he said: “It was said: O Prophet of Allah, when were you a Prophet? He said: When Adam was between the soul and the body”.

Al-Bayhaqi said [21]: And what is meant by Prophet Muhammad [salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salams] saying: “I was written [in Umm Al-Kitab] in Allah’s presence as the Seal of the Prophets, while Adam was still kneaded in his clay” is that he was destined and decreed by Allah even before the father of Man and the first of Messenger’s [Salawat Allah ‘alaihim].

Abu al-Husien ibn Bishran said, we were told by Abu Ja’far Muhammad ibn ‘Amr, we were told by Ahmad ibn Is-haaq ibn Saleh, we were told by Muhammad ibn Saleh, we were told by Muhammad ibn Sinan al-‘Uofi, we were told by Ibrahim ibn Tahmaan, from Budayl ibn Maysara, from Abdullah ibn Shaqiq, from Maysarah that he said: I said: O Prophet of Allah, when were you a Prophet? He replied: “When Allah created the earth ‘Then He rose over (Istawâ) the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens’ (2:29), and created the Throne, He wrote on the leg of the Throne: "Muhammad the Messenger of Allah is the Seal of Prophets". Then Allah created the Garden/Paradise (Jannah) in which He made Adam and Hawwa' dwell, and He wrote my name on the gates, on its tree-leaves, its domes and tents, at a time when Adam was still between the spirit and the body. When Allah Most High instilled life into him he looked at the Throne and saw my name, whereupon Allah informed him that 'He [Muhammad Salah Allah ‘alaihi WaSalam] is the head/best of all your descendants.' When Satan deceived them both, they repented and sought intercession to Allah with my name”. A good strong chain (Jayid Qawi).

And it implies that him being a Prophet [at that time] is: Declaring this in the upper world before the soul was breathed into Adam [‘Alaihi al Salam]. The hadith also showed the secret behind the declaration of [Prophet Muhammad’s] Prophethood at that time, and that it has two reasons behind it that are unique about him [Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salam]:

First: That he is the best (Sayid) from among all the sons of Adam.
The second: That he is the seal of the Prophets, and this is supported by what he mentioned of the glad tidings of Ibrahim and ‘Isa about him [‘alaihim al salah wa alsalam].

Now, all the Prophets have their Prophethood predestined by Allah, however it was never mentioned that Allah announced the Prophethood of any of them specifically beforehand, before Adam was created. Thus this [status/virtue] was not for anyone except for Prophet Muhammad [salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa salam], and it the secret of his saying: “I was a Prophet, when Adam was still between the soul and the body” which means that the bearers of the Throne and the angels knew his name and Prophethood before the creation of Adam [‘Alaihi Alsalam], and yet they (Angels) did not know Adam until he was created.

Important note:

The hadith of: “I was a Prophet when Adam was between the water and the clay” has no basis (La Asla lah) [22], and the hadith of: “I was a Prophet when there was no Adam, or water, or clay” [23] also has no base (La Aslah Lahu Aydan).

And what exists in the books of the (innovated) Prophetic Mawlid from traditions that hold no weight or value are from the excessiveness that Allah and his messenger forbade us from, thus it is forbidden to read such books. Giving and making apologies and excuses that it is of the virtues that one can be lenient when citing (and can cite weak traditions) is unacceptable. As for those that are lies and fabrications then it is not acceptable when mentioned virtues by consensus, and it is forbidden to narrate such traditions [except when pointing out that they are fabricated].

And the messenger [salah Allah ‘alaihi wa salam] says: “Whoever narrates from me a tradition that he sees is a lie then he is one of the Liars” [24] and what is meant by “sees” here is “thinks”.

And he also says: “Whoever tells lies about me, let him take his place in Hell” [25].

And the virtue of the messenger [Salah Allah ‘alaihi wa salam] is well known and is shown in the Holy Quran and in authentic traditions, and he does not need excessiveness and lies to be told about him to demonstrate his virtue, and he [Salah Allah ‘alaihi wa salam] said: “Do not praise me, like the Christians [excessively] praised ‘Isa. I am a slave [of Allah] so say the slave of Allah and His messenger” [26].

This is something I wrote quickly on Sunday 25th of Ju Al-Qi’dah 1408 H, and all praise is due to Allah firstly and lastly and May His peace and blessings be upon His messenger Muhammad and his household.

[1] Refer to: Tashneef Al-Asmaa' be-Shuyukh Al-Ijaza wa Al-Sama' by Abi Suleiman Mahmoud ibn Saeed ibn Muhammad Mamdooh p/346-354, and Sabeel Al-Tawfeeq fee Tarjamat Abdullah ibn Al-Sideeq by the same author
[!] Narrated from several ways including what was narrated by Al-Bukhari in his Sahih in Kitab Al-‘Ilm (the book of knowledge): Chapter of ‘The great sin of those who lie about the Prophet [Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salam], and in Kitab Al-Adab (the book of etiquettes): Chapter of ‘Who used the names of Prophets’ and the wording is his, and Muslim in his introduction: Chapter of: ‘Taghleez Al-Kazib ‘Ala Rasoul Allah [Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salam]’, and Abu Dawood in his Sunan: Kitab Al-‘Ilm (the book of knowledge): Chapter of ‘Al-Tashdeed fee Al-Kazib ‘Ala Rasoul Allah [Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salam]’, and Al-Tirmizi in his Sunan: Kitab Al-‘Ilm (the book of knowledge): Chapter of ‘What came in Ta’zeem Al-Kazib ‘Ala Rasoul Allah [Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salam]’ and the Chapter of ‘What came in speaking about Bani Israeel’, and the Book of Fitan: Chapter (07), and Ibn Majah in his Sunan: Introduction: Chapter of ‘Al-Taghleez in deliberately lying about the Prophet of Allah [Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salam] all of them adding “deliberately” [in the hadith], and [was narrated by] Ahmad in his Musnad in several locations from different narrators.
I said: And the narration of Al-Bukhari does not have the word [deliberately].

[2] Rather what is mentioned in his Tafseer is to the contrary, where he mentioned that the first thing to be created was The Water.

[3] Refer to Al-Hawi fee Al-Fatawi 1/325 in the Tafsir of Surat Al-Mudathir (Chapter 74), and Al-Suyuti mentioned in “Qoot Al-Mughtazi Sharh Al-Tirmizi” after mentioned the hadith: When Allah the Exalted created the Pen first …, he said: As for the tradition that first thing is the brain/mind it has no basis (Laysa Lahu Asl), and as for the tradition that first thing is the light of Prophet Muhammad it can’t hold (La Yathbut).

[4] Al-Hafiz Al-Muhadith Ahmad Al-Ghumari May Allah have mercy in him said in the introduction of his book “Al-Mug’eer ‘Ala Al-Jami’ Al-Sag’eer”: “O Jabir, the first thing Allah created was the light of your Prophet from His light, …fabricated”, and then he said: “and its continuation is in around two pages from the big size, containing weak wordings and rejected meanings”.
I say: This tradition is contradictory to what Allah the Exalted said: {Say: I am only a man like you} (18:110), and it is contrary to the tradition that was narrated by Al-Bukhari, Al-Bayhaqi, and ibn Al-Jaroud from ‘Umran Ibn Haseen that the people of Yemen came to Prophet Muhammad –salah Allah ‘alaihi wa Salam- and said: O Prophet of Allah we came to you to learn about our religion and to ask you about the Beginning of this thing, how was it? So he replied: It was Allah, and nothing else, and His Throne was on the water, and He wrote in the Book all things, and then he created the heavens and the earth”, and the tradition that was narrated by Ibn Majah and Ibn Hiban that Abu Huraira said: O Prophet of Allah, whenever I see you my inner self becomes calm, and my eye is pleased so tell me about all things. So he said: “Allah the Exalted created all things from water”, and for the tradition that As-Sud-di Al-Kabeer narrated from Ibn ‘Abbas Mawqoofan “Allah the Exalted did not create anything before the water”.

[5] The Mawdoo’at of Al-Saghani p. 25, and Al-‘Aghluni agreed with him in Kashf Al-Khafa’ 2/232 in ruling that it is fabricated.

[6] And some have also claimed that this hadith i.e. the made-up hadith of Jabir has been proven through a Kashf (vision). This is something that has no meaning since a Kashf that comes against the [authentic] hadith of the Prophet of Allah [Salah Allah ‘Alaihi wa Salam] has no value or consideration.

[7] Narrated by Imam Ahmad in his Musnad 4/127 twice, and 128 and has: “’Abd-u-Allah”, and Al-Hakim in Al-Mustadrak similar to it 2/600, and Al-Bayhaqi in Al-Dalael 1/80 and 83 with a minor change in wording.

[8] Magma’ Al-Zawaed 8/223

[9] Refer to “Kashf Al-Astaar” 3/112-113, and Al-Bazaar said: “we do not know that it has a chain better than this, and Sa’eed ibn Suwaid is a Shami Laysa bihi Ba’as, and Abu Bakr ibn Abi Maryam we had already mentioned him previously”.

[10] Al-Thiqat by Ibn Hiban 8/262

[11] He is Abu Bakr Abdullah ibn Abi Maryam Al-Ghasani Al-Shami, refer to: Tahzeeb Al-Tahzeeb 12/228, and Al-Du’afa and Al-Matroukeen by Ibn Al-Jawzi 1/152.

[12] He attributed it in Maghma’ Al-Zawaid 8/223 to Al-Tabari in Al-Mu’gham Al-Kabeer 20/353, and said: “Its men are those of the authentic”, and Imam Ahmad narrated it in his Musnad 5/59 with the word: “I wrote”.

[13] Al-Hafiz Al-‘Asqalani attributed it to them in Al-Isaaba 3/470.

[14] Al-Tareekh Al-Kabeer 7/374.

[15] Al-Mustadrak 2/609.

[16] Narrated by Imam Ahmad in the Musnad 4/66.

[17] Magma’ Al-Zawaid 8/223

[18] Tabaqat ibn Saa’d 7/59.

[19] Refer to Kashf Al-Astar 3/112, and ‘Uqbah said: “We do not know it narrated from Ibn Abbas except from this way, and Nasr was not strong, and he wasn’t a liar, but he had Shi’a inclinations (Kaan Yatashaya’) and we did not find this tradition except with him”. And in Al-Bazaar with the word: “I wrote”.

[20] Narrated by Al-Tabari in Al-Mu’gham Al-Kabeer 12/92 with the same chain of Al-Bazzar, and 119 through a different chain from Ibn ‘Abbas.

[21] Dalael Al-Nubuwah 1/81.

[22] Refer to “Al-Tazkirah fee Al-Ahadeeth Al-Mushtaharah” p. 172, “Al-Maqasid Al-Hasanah” p. 522, “Tameez Al-Tayib min Al-Khabeeth” p. 126, “Kashf Al-Khafa” 2/173, “Tanzeeh Al-Sharee’ah” 1/341, “Al-Asrar Al-Marfoo’ah” p. 178, “Tazkirat Al-Mawdoo’at” p. 86, “Asnaa Al-Matalib” p. 243.

[23] Refer to previous sources cited.

[24] Narrated by Imam Muslim in his Sahih: Introduction: Chapter of: The obligation of narrating from those reliable and leaving the liars, and warning from lying on Prophet Muhammad –salah Allah ‘alaihi wa salam-, and al-Tirmizi in his Sunan with its similarity: Book of knowledge (‘Ilm): Chapter of: What was narrated about those who narrate traditions and see that it is a lie – from Al-Mughirah ibn Shu’bah, and he said: And in the chapter from the narration of ‘Ali ibn abi Talib, and Samarah, Abu ‘Isa said: This tradition is Hasan Sahih, and Ibn Majah in his Sunan: Introduction: Chapter of: Whoever narrates a tradition from Prophet Muhammad –salah Allah ‘alaihi wa salam- while seeing that it is a lie.

[25] The reference was already mentioned.

[26] Narrated by Ahmad in his Musnad with its similarity 1/23, 24, 47, 55, 56, and Ibn Hiban in his Sahih with its similarity also refer to Al-Ihsan Betarteeb Sahih Ibn Hiban 8/46, and from Ibn ‘Abbas 1/318, and Al-Humaidi in his Musnad with its similarity 1/16 all of which are narrated from ‘Umar.

Transaltion completed by the Grace of Allah on sat. September 29, 2007.

Ibn Abbas Al-Misri

[teewHettive]

Asalamu Alaikum,
Shaykh Husain, I think I speak for many of us when I say we are truly thankful to you for donating your time to help us laymen get a better understanding of this din.

With that being said, I think certain members of this forum should show more respect to a man of knowledge that is giving us his time and sharing his knowledge. He is not here to be bated or to be talked to in a sarcastic manner. Please, do not ruin it for those of us that truly wish to learn.

[Kokomoxcv]

Mufti Sahib for that, but i have stumbled across a fatwa of Dr GF Haddad on this, maybe you can analyze what he quoted:

http://www.abc.se/~m9783/fiqhi/fiqha_e30.html

Read through the entire article of the Barelwi-influenced GF and see if he - or any of the authorities whose names he lists to impress the reader - have mentioned a chain for the hadith.

Also, don't duped by others using the hadith of "I was a Nabi, when Adam was between soul and body."
This shows that Nabi's ruh was the first ruh created, a matter no one differs upon. The issue is not whose ruh was created first, but rather was there anything created prior to the Ruh of Nabi .

This will suffice as a reply to zinc, who has yet to produce a chain for the hadith, instead fills his post with ahadith that have no bearing on the issue.

Also, the narration he mentioned :"I was a Prophet while Adam (alayhis 'salam) was still between water and clay." is fabricated.
When was Adam between water and clay?
The correct version is "between ruh and body".

And Allah Ta'ala knows best

[mikapoq]

Do you have a source for this Hadith?

As brother zinc said it's from mawahib al-ladunya, chapter entitled 'al-anwaar al-muhammadiyya', page 9.

[Maydayvar]

Read through the entire article of the Barelwi-influenced GF and see if he - or any of the authorities whose names he lists to impress the reader - have mentioned a chain for the hadith.

Also, don't duped by others using the hadith of "I was a Nabi, when Adam was between soul and body."
This shows that Nabi's ruh was the first ruh created, a matter no one differs upon. The issue is not whose ruh was created first, but rather was there anything created prior to the Ruh of Nabi .

This will suffice as a reply to zinc, who has yet to produce a chain for the hadith, instead fills his post with ahadith that have no bearing on the issue.

Also, the narration he mentioned :"I was a Prophet while Adam (alayhis 'salam) was still between water and clay." is fabricated.
When was Adam between water and clay?
The correct version is "between ruh and body".

And Allah Ta'ala knows best

as-salamu `alaikum shaykh,

I'm not sure why I get the feeling you are constantly personally attacking shaykh Gibril (may Allah preserve him).

Anyway, shaykh Gibril himself says the chain is nowhere to be found and wording suggests that it is a forgery!

In fact, shaykh Abul Hasan explained this on your forum years ago:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=119176

I did not witness the above reply, however, it confirms the general
direction of our perusal of this hadith: its chain is nowehere to be
found and its wording contains weakness that suggests forgery.

Another time, Dr. `Itr was asked about Sh. `Abd Allah Siraj al-Din's
position and he confirmed that the latter did not consider the hadith
forged. Then Dr. `Itr added: In Manaqib we do not have to sue for
soundness the way we do for `Aqida and Ahkam, and this hadith does not
bear on `Aqida but Manaqib. Then he said that the sound hadiths: "I
was a Prophet when Adam was still between the soul and the body" and
"I was a prophet while Adam was still kneaded in his clay" dispense us
of looking any further for proofs of the primacy of the Prophet's
creation.

I believe that in the back of his mind he was referring to the
explanation given by Taqi al-Din al-Subki for these two hadiths in his
Fatawa, to which Imam al-Qastallani in his Mawahib gave precedence
over the explanation of Imam al-Ghazali, Allah have mercy on them. There have been multiple other threads discussing this on Sunna-Principles. I know you have access to it so perhaps you can get hold of them ?

was-salam

[Kokomoxcv]

I'm not sure why I get the feeling you are constantly personally attacking shaykh Gibril (may Allah preserve him).

Anyway, shaykh Gibril himself says the chain is nowhere to be found and wording suggests that it is a forgery!

Well, I thought I make it very clear that I have huge problems with the ill-mannered heavily barelwi inclined Haddad. It is not something that you need to "get a feeling" about.
He is a nobody compared to our great Akabir, yet insists on wagging his tongue and using terribly disrespectful words for them.


As for him considering it a forgery, then it is his duty to remove this misleading article, which he posted defending "the forgery".

[Maydayvar]

as-salamu `alaikum shaykh

well, at least thats clear but its a shame that you appear to be towards him how you accuse him of being towards the deobandi akabir.

I'm not sure why you are misled by his old article (on livingislam which he does not maintain but is run by brother Omar). The article does what it says it sets out to do "The judgments on this narration vary greatly among the scholars. Their words are listed below under the alphabetical listing of their names."

As for shaykh Gibril's position that is made clear in his own words which you saw posted on your forum over two years ago.

Also, as I mentioned there are multiple threads on this issue on Sunna-Priniciples which you have access to.. why don't you get them?

Anyway, if anyone else was misled then insha'Allah they won't be anymore.

was-salam

[Kokomoxcv]

well, at least thats clear but its a shame that you appear to be towards him how you accuse him of being towards the deobandi akabir.

Yes, we treat him as he treats our Akabirs, as as we do with the like of Albani and gang.

I'm not sure why you are misled by his old article (on livingislam which he does not maintain but is run by brother Omar). The article does what it says it sets out to do "The judgments on this narration vary greatly among the scholars. Their words are listed below under the alphabetical listing of their names."

The article is clearly in defense of the forgery, as is clear to anyone who reads it.

I have no interest in the least as to what is Haddads current view on the hadith, he is known for grading narrations as per his whims and fancies, similar to what Albani used to do.

[OnlineViagraCheapestFREE]

So the arsh was the first thing created?

right?

[plogypeskelry]

It saddens me to see Dr GF Haddad using such language against the Deobandi Scholars, really does.

"a leader of the Wahhabi-influenced Deobandi school".

The early Scholars of Deoband worked relentlessely to fight against heresy, and this is what they get.

Wallahu A'lam.

[plogypeskelry]

So the arsh was the first thing created?

right?

Maybe Water, because everything comes from water, right?

[DesautocaD]

It saddens me to see Dr GF Haddad using such language against the Deobandi Scholars, really does.

"a leader of the Wahhabi-influenced Deobandi school".

The early Scholars of Deoband worked relentlessely to fight against heresy, and this is what they get.

Wallahu A'lam.

Sad, indeed. It says that article was posted in the year 2000 I believe. 8 long years have passed by without any removal. That's a pretty big accusation to make for that long. The Deobandi akabir had to answer to this false association even in their lifetime. Now I can see the truth in Mufti Husain's statement "Barelwi influenced". The above link is proof. May Allah reward Mufti Husain, I rarely see him not say anything without proof. That is a rare quality. Masha Allah.

[Kokomoxcv]

Maybe Water, because everything comes from water, right?

Yes, water was the first creation.

[biannaruh]

May Allah reward our Amir Saheb for speaking the truth. Amin.

[plogypeskelry]

Sad, indeed. It says that article was posted in the year 2000 I believe. 8 long years have passed by without any removal. That's a pretty big accusation to make for that long. The Deobandi akabir had to answer to this false association even in their lifetime. Now I can see the truth in Mufti Husain's statement "Barelwi influenced". The above link is proof. May Allah reward Mufti Husain, I rarely see him not say anything without proof. That is a rare quality. Masha Allah.

I seriously thought Scholars such as Shaykh GF Haddad are the key to remove this Barelwi/Deobandi conflict and help reconcile these groups for the sake of Unity.

But it seems his fatwa: No Difference between Barelwis and Deobandis is on thin line and wont be taken seriously by anyone from either groups anymore.

Mufti Sahib has spoken the truth. I have never met a Scholar with such balance. Masha-Allah. May Allah make him the lamp of the Ummah. Ameen.

[biannaruh]

I seriously thought Scholars such as Shaykh GF Haddad are the key to remove this Barelwi/Deobandi conflict and help reconcile these groups for the sake of Unity.

But it seems his fatwa: No Difference between Barelwis and Deobandis is on thin line and wont be taken seriously by anyone from either groups anymore.

Mufti Sahib has spoken the truth. I have never met a Scholar with such balance. Masha-Allah. May Allah make him the lamp of the Ummah. Ameen.

The call for Deobandi-Barelwi unity is hollow. If you read in-between the lines of that fatwa you will notice that it reinstates the same gross inaccuracies which the Barelwis say about the Akabir.

For example, GF Haddad writes: "We do not endorse the mistakes that anyone might have made, such as uttering words rightly perceived to lack adab in matters of `Aqida..."

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...&ID=498&CATE=2

[WhileKelf]

Read through the entire article of the Barelwi-influenced GF and see if he - or any of the authorities whose names he lists to impress the reader - have mentioned a chain for the hadith.

Also, don't duped by others using the hadith of "I was a Nabi, when Adam was between soul and body."
This shows that Nabi's ruh was the first ruh created, a matter no one differs upon. The issue is not whose ruh was created first, but rather was there anything created prior to the Ruh of Nabi .

This will suffice as a reply to zinc, who has yet to produce a chain for the hadith, instead fills his post with ahadith that have no bearing on the issue.

Also, the narration he mentioned :"I was a Prophet while Adam (alayhis 'salam) was still between water and clay." is fabricated.
When was Adam between water and clay?
The correct version is "between ruh and body".

And Allah Ta'ala knows best

Do you have the hadeeth in arabic (the clay/water one)? Is it fabricated simply because adam wasn't between clay and water?