[Meerenuch]

Look at the seller's history - a lot of them have been around for a long time.

Read the descriptions (such as they are) carefully, especially for lower priced watches, as many of them aren't running, and need repairs. That said, some dealers offer warranties - even with antique watches!

A reputable seller will have put the watch into running order which will have a warranty on those repairs.

[denSmumbSes]

Anyway, must retire now.

Roughbarked, don't forget me if you want ever want to sell.

Another day of watching the Qld govt services die the death of a thousand cuts tomorrow.

Goodnight, peace to all.

[herrdwq]

Night cs..

[finasteridonline]

A reputable seller will have put the watch into running order which will have a warranty on those repairs.

Ye..e.e.ss. Maybe. Depends. sometimes, it's not worth their while. Sell the non-running watch, just to keep some turnover going, let the buyer decide if they love the watch so much they'll risk the cost of repairs.

And, watch repairers etc buy off e-Bay, too.

[GtmFeqJJ]

Ye..e.e.ss. Maybe. Depends. sometimes, it's not worth their while. Sell the non-running watch, just to keep some turnover going, let the buyer decide if they love the watch so much they'll risk the cost of repairs.

And, watch repairers etc buy off e-Bay, too.

Yair, that's a fair assessment.

Supply of spare parts in Australia is a nightmare these days.

I've looked over the Tag Heuer 1887 cal..
"Intellectual property

Caliber 1887’s base is Seiko Caliber TC78, intellectual property purchased in 2006 when reliable chronograph calibers could not be found in Switzerland in quantities necessitated by TAG Heuer. The La Chaux-de-Fonds-based brand purchased the exclusive rights to produce this movement in Europe. And though the design of the movement remains the same to ensure reliability and precision, TAG Heuer now manufactures the components needed to achieve the Swiss Made label and accommodate desired features, and has also increased the quality of the finishing. The base plate, bridges, and rotor are manufactured at TAG Heuer’s industrial facility Cortech in Cornol, where a large percentage of the brand’s cases are manufactured. " So basically all Tag Heuer do is make the plates pretty and add an escapement, to keep it "Swiss" the escapement was The oscillating subassembly comprising the balance spring, pallets, and escape wheel are pure Nivarox, the Swatch Group-owned specialist for escapement parts. .. but is now To replace the Nivarox Hairsprings, TH will source Hairsprings from a both Atokalpa (Switzerland) and Seiko Instruments Inc (“SII”) Sure, they redesign some top plates, polish the parts and stamp their name on them before assembling them. All they have really done is switch from ETA to Seiko. the base model

I could buy cases and movements in blank form. Tool up and finish the blanks off with my unique style, put my name on the dial. It would still be an ETA or some other. There have been numerous respectable brand names which were exclusively produced in Australia, simply by assembling imported movements and cases. A couple you may remember were Felicia and Lauris(later known as Taurus). Another more recent would be Adina.

[girlsround]

I can see the forum

Yes but it has been closed to replies since 2010. I wonder if all the links I posted in it are still viable.

I'll refrain from posting lots of watch porn in these forums but can link you to images. This is the original 6S37 Seiko from which the TC78 was developed and later purchased by Tag Heuer outright. http://ninanet.net/watches/others06/...mseikofm91.jpg (note it has a cut down auto weight/rotor)

The basic components remain the same in the Tag Heuer 1887 though as with all Swiss watches, the finish is far more expensive. Seiko never made a watch with polishing on parts that didn't need to be polished. That was one of the secrets to their success. The other was spending more on new and more innovative design rather than more on polishing up old ones.

Another movement mentioned on the Tag Heuer page linked, was the Selitta SW 500 see here; http://blog.breitlingsource.com/2010...w500-movement/ = The Valjoux 7750 which it is basically a cheapened copy of.. is the same movement that's been around long enough to still retain the name Valjoux long after Ebauches SA bought them out and used it to complement their other base movement, the ETA. Another base movement in larger lignes is the Unitas.. All owned now by the Swatch group.


Anyway, a lot of this is in that mechanical watch lovefest link, I posted.. No point in repeating it here.

[Jenisoisy]

Yeah, i like a nice watch. I carry a Longines hunter, made in 1913.

My advice - save your money up, shop around on e-Bay, and buy yourself a nice old watch. There's lots to be found on there.

I would agree. You don't always have to go Swiss to get a quality item either. I have a 62/3 Citizen AutoDater Jet. It has a no hack ring winder that only Citizen and Longines have been known to use. Get to know the brands and you should soon know what you like.

http://sweep-hand.org/the-jet-automatic/

[Dwemadayday]

I've always been fond of those watches with a clear sapphire crystal cover. Scratch resistant.

The watch I currently wear was bought in 1979, a CASIO Sports 100. Not in the same league as your watches but seemed extremely expensive at the time.

[feqlmwtuqx]

I would agree. You don't always have to go Swiss to get a quality item either.

In fact, Swiss lost a lot of ground to Japanese, due to just that fact. The Japs were making better stuff more cheaply. The Swiss wouldn't embrace change.

The jet rotor was just one of many designs for auto rotor weights, it was an attempt to use the benefits of the bang-bang rotors used by Omega and Rolex at the time, both of which were watchmakers nighmares. The ideal was to make the watch slimmer. The concept was simpler with less parts and did make the watch thinner but it introduced a lot more friction. In a person not physically active enough this resulted in the watch not winding up properly. http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j3...moveMedium.jpg

[AlabamaBoyz]

I've always been fond of those watches with a clear sapphire crystal cover. Scratch resistant.

The watch I currently wear was bought in 1979, a CASIO Sports 100. Not in the same league as your watches but seemed extremely expensive at the time.

In 1971 I held an LED watch in my hands.. it cost $1600 at the time was big, clunky and most of the time was featureless until you pressed the buttons to see the red digits appear out of the darkness. By 1975 NEC were producing digital LCD movements with case and band for $2.
Casio, making digital calculators between 1970-1980 became the world's leading producer. Their first LCD watch was produced in 1978. Within a couple of years Casio suddenly had also captured a lot of the cheap digital watch maket and were moving to more upmarket case designs. Casio didn't have a mechanical watchmaking history.
Casio was established in April 1946 by Tadao Kashio (Kashio Tadao), an engineer specializing in fabrication technology. Kashio's first major product was the yubiwa pipe, a finger ring that would hold a cigarette, allowing the wearer to smoke the cigarette down to its nub while also leaving the wearer's hands free. Japan was impoverished immediately following World War II and cigarettes were valuable,and the invention was a success.
After seeing the electric calculators at the first Business Show in Ginza, Tokyo in 1949, Kashio and his younger brothers used their profits from the yubiwa pipe to develop their own calculators. Most of the calculators at that time worked using gears and could be operated by hand using a crank or using a motor. Kashio had some knowledge of electronics, and set out to make a calculator using solenoids. The desk-sized calculator was finished in 1954, sold for 485,000 yen and was Japan's first electronic calculator.
•the first watch with LCD, in 1978
•the first digital watch with sensors for forecasting weather trends, in 1989
•a wrist watch with digital compass, released in 1993
•the Twincept wrist watch with on glass display, released 1995 ... http://www.casiodigitalwatches.com/casiohistory.htm

[extessarere]

I have long coveted an expensive Swiss watch and have intended to purchase one, some day, when the finances allow. There is something appealing about a finely fabricated mechanical movement with the imprimatur of the craftsman and the esteemed imprint of the manufacturer - a piece which would undoubtedly increase in value over time. I had in mind a Tag Heuer or Breitling, about $4-5K worth, which I would regard as an investment and an heirloom. I had imagined these timepieces to be fabricated as individual items by a team of craftsmen, milling and assembling in a small workshop.

I have been disillusioned to learn that the movements for the majority of prestige Swiss watches are not made in-house, but are instead mass produced by a company called ETA, a subsidiary of Swatch. They are manufactured to 4 different standards, the highest being "chronograph" standard, and endorsed as being of excellence by COSC, the Swiss watchmaker credentialling organisation. Undoubtedly a high level of excellence, but by no means unique, or even rare.

The prestige manufacturers add their degree of uniqueness through design of case, watch face, bracelet, etc.

Does this detract from the value /desirability of these timepieces? I can't help feeling it does. Are they a worthwhile investment, or just a whim and folly? I would be interested to hear the opinions / experiences of others.

First things first and moving on: The ideal of owning a fine mechanical timepiece is a good one. It is akin to owning a fine piece of art. However a simple waterwash, inking or charcoal sketch may well have more value to more people than a blue poles. When finances permit could be whenever a nice watch passes your eye and the money is in your wallet or you could aspire to owning a Patek Phillipe Grand Complication (which would require quite a fat wallet). There is definitely something appealing about holding a piece of fine craftsmanship that has so many layers of complexity yet can still get lost in the expanse of the palm of your hand.. Remembering down though history that such things were priceless and only available to kings and queens or the landed gentry. Even today, for a craftsman to design and fabricate a hand made pocket watch of Ye Olde English style(with modern tools) will cost in the region of £200,000 and take a year or more.
The New World horologists however like any craftsman had both the demand for supply from the common people for a timepiece that was within their reach and the supply of food to their own table their children demanded. This became the catch cry of the New World evangelists forging the new life in the land of the free. American watch factories the size of small towns sprung up. Mass production was the new way. The watches were not any less in quality, they were just not made by hand any more. Everyone could afford one, though they were still not cheap by any means they were within reach. It wasn't just watches. American mantel clocks could be purchased for $10 and less.. A really fancy one could cost more but it was all in the case. The movement which made all those clocks work was the same. The watches were of much higher quality than the clocks (believe me, they need to be) but a Waltham had two models and the Elgin, also two. It wasn't any grand standard that desired two models, only size. Railway watches topped the list because a lot of people worked on the railways and needed a watch.. There was a standard size for railway watches.

It was really the mass production of high quality synthetic ruby bearings That regained the Swiss the advantage. This allowed the production of shockproof watches to come to the fore.

This was a shattering blow to the Swiss watch industry which had become the world leader after the British(which by then was defunct). The only way forward was to try to compete and this has been the story ever since. Much of all the advancements in design technology about timekeeping with mechanical watches had already been done. It was just a matter of mechanising all these aspects. The Swiss took up the Ebauches concept.. of parts. The Swiss won that battle. The supply of parts.. Well why have fifty tourbillion makers, hairspring makers, wheel cutters, staff/stem turners? When fifty horological companies could now concentrate on rearranging the same parts in different ways to facilitate new designs for thinner or thicker, for delicate or rough stuff. The worlds toughest watch in 1972
This was the basis which later became Ebauches SA ESA, ETA, into the Swatch group. Nothing really different just centralised management. The Swiss were forced into this by the rise of the Japanese industry though Germany, France, China and Russia all had their own watchmaking cultures. The Americans had put most of their horologists into other areas surrounding mass production of automobiles, aeroplanes, arms and the space industry.. leading to the silicon valley.

Japan just forged ahead making a silk loom out of a Swiss watch. There is really nothing new about Swiss watches. Virtually everything about mechanical watches that could be learned had already been done. ... until the Japanese improved on virtually everything. The Swiss had been mucking about with automatic winding rotors and transmissions for hundreds of years. Seiko settled on one model and fitted it or reinvented it to fit all their watches, more simply, more reliable, less costly to manufacture, less customer complaints. Citizen tried more than one but mainly used the same style as Seiko of cheap, easy, robust, accurate. Without lowering the standard of quality. So, basically the American standard was rebirthed in a new land, Japan.

Now, let us not run down the Swiss watch. Whether they are ETA, Unitas or Valjoux. These are standard base models that can easily be improved with high level tooling. It was a feature of the industry before Waltham and Elgin, that American horologists bought Swiss movements and dressed them up.. The worm has turned as that is exactly what is happening today. American horologists are buying Swiss base movements and making them into $25,000 masterpieces of new technology(in use since 1970).

So what if Tag Heuer buys a Seiko and dresses it up? It is what all watch manufacturers have done for the past 150 years. The 'new' tech has all been about electronic timekeeping (though that isn't exactly new).

Hewn from a solid block of stainless steel or 18ct gold? so what? the main part of the Rolex fame still has the weak core of brass.

Remember this much.. any watch is a worthwhile investment. It will help you keep appointments, be at work on time, keep records of your time and motion studies, while wowing your acquaintances with its snappy design.. Buy as many as Imelda Marcos had shoes.. That was the Swatch group design.

As an investment, it is still the old and the unique that accrue value. The Hublot has a long way to go.

If you ask me.. the new surge of watchmaking is coming.. from China.. You'll be able to do as I did today.. buy a better $1300 jackhammer, for $49.
but hey, that will all change before you have read to here.


There exists a clock in a south west regional town hospital which is 300 years old, the clock not the hospital. I was asked to repair it. My quote was look, if you have room for 100,000 mainsprings in your storage, I can sell you 100,000 new mainsprings.. They won't be cheap because they'll be a one-off job lot and may take many months or years to be transported from Europe. However, that is the smallest amount I have to order to be able to supply you with one. Otherwise, if you don't mind winding it up every seven days rather than eight, I can fix it for you for $30 and have it on tomorrow's taxi-truck. They are still winding it every seven days .. and that was 20 years ago.

[Misiotoagodia]

Hello roughbarked

Thanks for your input. I have spent the last 3 days looking through that Mactalk link you provided. Some fascinating stuff there.

On balance, I have decided to go ahead with my plans to obtain a good quality mechanical movement Swiss watch – notwithstanding the fact that it will probably contain a mass-produced ETA ebauche. However, I don’t want to pay through the nose by purchasing at a city boutique. I see that Amazon’s watch prices are generally 20-30% less expensive than Australian retail outlets. What do you think of Amazon as a place to purchase a Swiss watch? Do you have other sources you would recommend?

At this stage of my research, I am favouring a TAG or Baume & Mercier chronograph. The models I am considering are these:

http://www.amazon.com/TAG-Heuer-CAR2...ograph+watches

http://www.amazon.com/Baume-Mercier-...ercier+watches

http://www.amazon.com/Baume-Mercier-...ercier+watches


As you can see, I favour the classic uncluttered look, with white face and leather strap. Do you have an opinion about any of these watches? Is there any way I can get information on the movement they contain? I have heard that the TAG chrono actually contains an in-house manufactured movement. Would this be a good thing or a bad thing? Why is the Baume and Mercier about $1,000 less expensive than the TAG?

Any information appreciated.

[Jasonstawnosaa]

The Tag Heuer Carrera at Amazon has the Calibre 1887 movement as discussed above.

Tthe B+M probably have an ETA or similar movement. They reason they are cheaper is probably to do with marketing. B+M don't use L deCaprio and other stars to sell their watches. There may be differences in the quality but you would have to look at each to see how much.

Amazon will probably not ship to Aust so you would need to use a US buying service to get the watch for you. There is a likelyhood that you get hit for GST.

I believe that Authentic watches are reputable if you want to buy OS.

If you want to buy in Aust then aim to beat down the price by 25-30% off RRP.

Edit: the B+M has an ETA 7750:
http://www.authenticwatches.com/baum...ives-8692.html

[adsexpist]

Hello roughbarked

Thanks for your input. I have spent the last 3 days looking through that Mactalk link you provided. Some fascinating stuff there.

On balance, I have decided to go ahead with my plans to obtain a good quality mechanical movement Swiss watch – notwithstanding the fact that it will probably contain a mass-produced ETA ebauche. However, I don’t want to pay through the nose by purchasing at a city boutique. I see that Amazon’s watch prices are generally 20-30% less expensive than Australian retail outlets. What do you think of Amazon as a place to purchase a Swiss watch? Do you have other sources you would recommend?

At this stage of my research, I am favouring a TAG or Baume & Mercier chronograph. The models I am considering are these:

http://www.amazon.com/TAG-Heuer-CAR2...ograph+watches

http://www.amazon.com/Baume-Mercier-...ercier+watches

http://www.amazon.com/Baume-Mercier-...ercier+watches


As you can see, I favour the classic uncluttered look, with white face and leather strap. Do you have an opinion about any of these watches? Is there any way I can get information on the movement they contain? I have heard that the TAG chrono actually contains an in-house manufactured movement. Would this be a good thing or a bad thing? Why is the Baume and Mercier about $1,000 less expensive than the TAG?

Any information appreciated.

Good, I'm glad you have read the thread. Though it was not all necessarily about your choice of watch, it should have cleared up a lot of your questions. One I will ask is; what is it about a chronograph that you desire? Is it simply the complication of hands and buttons or do you specifically have a need to wear a stopwatch? The reasoning behind such a question is multi-faceted.

As to which is the best place to buy, should eventually be your decision. Comments in this thread from say Captain Spalding, should give you a little of his experience of buying from the web.

Yes, if you clarify your searches with one or two words ie: movement, calibre. All watches carrying price tags like the above should have a model number on the back. Using that as your search should be of greater assistance. Some manufacturers include the movement calibre as part of the model/case numbering.

One aspect of buying in Australia from a local you can talk to, is that you can get service. Now these days, service is always debatable. It used to be that if you bought your car in the next town rather than your own, that you had to drive the car to that town to get all the warranty servicing done. It probably still is, because these extra percentages quoted in sales prices usually mean that the seller is indebted to you for at least the warranty period. You are their customer. Most anything may be purchased less expensively on the web than through an outlet in Australia. Though the service componet may not be viable, it depends upon whether the savings are worth it to you or perhaps that you have a highly skilled watch service person in your pocket. A mechanical watch may run for decades without a service but by then, the service will become more expensive.

As to in-house manufacturing. Most of this is done to simply qualify being able to change the calibre number stamped on to the base plate. In the case of the TAG and the Cal.1887 Carrera, they purchased exclusive rights to the Seiko Cal.6S37 base model, specifically the TC78 revision. Which gives them the rights to modify the components. This does cost a little extra.

[d1Bc25UP]

The Tag Heuer Carrera at Amazon has the Calibre 1887 movement as discussed above.

Tthe B+M probably have an ETA or similar movement. They reason they are cheaper is probably to do with marketing. B+M don't use L deCaprio and other stars to sell their watches. There may be differences in the quality but you would have to look at each to see how much.

Amazon will probably not ship to Aust so you would need to use a US buying service to get the watch for you. There is a likelyhood that you get hit for GST.

I believe that Authentic watches are reputable if you want to buy OS.

If you want to buy in Aust then aim to beat down the price by 25-30% off RRP.

Edit: the B+M has an ETA 7750:
http://www.authenticwatches.com/baum...ives-8692.html

all good answers.. Though Tag Heuer will tell it slightly differently.. it is all about marketing their brand.
The ETA 7750 is indeed the Valjoux 7750. Let's be clear about this. All ETA did was whack their patented automatic winding system onto the base Valjoux chronograph. If the movement is examined via a loupe, the various makers marks will be stamped on the bits that belong to them.

In the thread that I linked from MacTalk.. I should have talked at length about the trials and tribulations of the various automatic winding systems. It is these which have flocculated the base calibres that are used today from the morass or the past.

[Snitiendumurn]

Good, I'm glad you have read the thread. Though it was not all necessarily about your choice of watch, it should have cleared up a lot of your questions. One I will ask is; what is it about a chronograph that you desire? Is it simply the complication of hands and buttons or do you specifically have a need to wear a stopwatch? The reasoning behind such a question is multi-faceted.

I rarely need a stopwatch, and when I do, my plastic Timex works just fine. No, it's just a fascination with the complication.

[vvxtiopmx]

As to in-house manufacturing. Most of this is done to simply qualify being able to change the calibre number stamped on to the base plate. In the case of the TAG and the Cal.1887 Carrera, they purchased exclusive rights to the Seiko Cal.6S37 base model, specifically the TC78 revision. Which gives them the rights to modify the components. This does cost a little extra.

So they aren't a Swiss watch. With all the licensing going about, is difficult to find much that is unique. I personally don't see licensed mechanisms as collectable, but I'm probably a purist.

[priceyicey]

I rarely need a stopwatch, and when I do, my plastic Timex works just fine. No, it's just a fascination with the complication.

Well why not just buy a good skeleton watch? Get one with a turbillion escapement.. that'll keep your eyes occupied better than a television or a campfire at night.

[costamarianavia]

So they aren't a Swiss watch. With all the licensing going about, is difficult to find much that is unique. I personally don't see licensed mechanisms as collectable, but I'm probably a purist.

where have you been, living under a rock?

[geraint.faughn]

where have you been, living under a rock?

http://people.timezone.com/library/a...s/archives0050

Zenith's El primero mechanism is impressive. Can't find the $15000 model I like the most though.