[astonmartinrx371]

Hello Everyone,
Please forgive the slightly mundane nature of my question. However, it is a very real question for me at present and has been for some time.

Born in England, I have spent the past 30 years of my life living, with my wife and family, here in Australia.

Whilst Christianity was the religion of my childhood (C of E), I spent many years of my life studying Eastern religions, primarily Hinduism and Buddhism.

It was about 4 years ago I was drawn back to our beloved Lord Jesus Christ through the writings of Archimandrite Sophrony and Saint Silouan.

Early last year I paid a visit to England and was fortunate enough to spend a few sublime days at Saint John the Baptist Monastery, Essex.

Before arriving, I requested I might receive Chrismation or Baptism at the monastery, but was told this was inappropriate and that I should seek entry into the Orthodox Church here in Australia.

Having investigated both the Russian and Greek Orthodox Churches, I must confess to feeling mildly uncomfortable and slightly out of place at both of them. Perhaps it is a cultural thing, I am really not too sure.

I enjoyed very much the church services in the monastery in England and feel kind of lonely (or at least alone) here in Australia. I sometimes wish we could move back to England and live close to the monastery, but I know that is impractical.

I so love Orthodoxy and studying the Holy Fathers and great Saints of the Orthodox Church.

Can someone please give me some advice on this matter?

Yours in Christ
peter

[YTmWSOA5]

I tend to find the Romanian, Antiochian and Serbian churches more welcoming, maybe you can try visiting them and see how you feel in that particular environment?

I am sure once you get to know a few people at the Russian/ Greek churches you would feel more relaxed. I am sure that's how most converts feel, like a bit awkward and not sure if you would fit in with the rest being non Russian/ Greek.

Forgot to mention the monastery at Essex does not perform any baptisms from what I heard it was an agreement between the monastery and the community they are in not to expand, because the people felt they would start converting the entire surrounding area.

Ask a few people here from Australia i am sure they can help you out more.

[Abofedrorobox]

I seriously doubt there is a risk of any Orthodox converting the entire surrounding area! If so, I would love to see it.

I have no idea what Orthodoxy is like in Australia. But in the Deep South, USA, it's difficult to find an Orthodox Church in small towns. Not that there is anything inherently wrong in driving an hour or more to get to Church, which I have done many times, but don't count on the Church being much more than a worship center for you. And In Australia, I assume my hour plus drive would translate into five or six!

Don't forget that all of the Orthodox services, apart from the Divine Liturgy, are designed for the faithful. You do not need a priest for any of these services. And the Antiochians have done a fairly decent job of setting many of the basic services into understandable music. So a couple or three families can get together on Sunday morning and chant and sing matins. And the hours and Vespers later. You can then inform the bishop you are doing this and ask if a priest might visit once in a while.

It is really quite an odd circumstance that our services are so complex that if the Holy Spirit struck a hundred thousand people who then wanted to convert, it would be absolutely impossible, because there is no one to teach them how to conduct services.

[Fhgzmftq]

It's unfortunate that you and I have to chose "which Orthodox Church" to go to. It should not be like this. However, it is.

The best advice I can give is, just don't go to one Church to "avoid" the other. Try to go to the one you chose for some proactive reason. It might make the decision a little easier when you look back on it later on. (I know several people that are rather inconsistent in my area and go to a number of parishes, including a group of nuns that blesses each of the local Churches sort of in turn.)

Feeling alone is a struggle we all have. I've always taken (to quote Robert Frost) the road less traveled and that is always the more difficult choice. However, in time and with regular attendance (particularly to the "lesser" services) you'll come to know your fellow parishioners and feel at home. Their "Russianess" or "Greekitude" will seem less important or exotic in time. Remember in spite of themselves they are becoming more Australian (just like they become more American than they realize here in the States).

You'll grow toward them and they to you. Over years families form. And the truth is, if it were "easy" then it wouldn't be building a genuine relationship.

My wife is better at this than I. I can instantly get to know anyone, but it makes my relationship shallow. She moves with great caution like relationship molasses... but she puts roots down deep.

[Rounteetepehryn]

Can someone please give me some advice on this matter?

Yours in Christ
peter

Hi Peter,
besides what others have said so far, you might want to look at a few things that can impact your decision.

1) Language. Especially if you have children, the language of the services can be important. If one of the parishes uses more English than others, it might be a good idea to frequent that church more often than the other. Of course, Owen's suggestion of reading the services yourself at home is a good idea either way, especially if neither church offers services in English.

2) The priest. The most important thing in my wife's conversion was the priest. I took her to the two churches that I grew up in, but she didn't connect well with the priest. Same thing in some others that we visited. But, when we helped start the church that we are now in, she instantly liked the priest and started her catechism with him. She always says that he made the difference. While an ethnic church might be a little off-putting as a whole, you should talk to the priest and see what he is like, and how he catechizes. You will be spending more time with him in the beginning than the other parishoners.

3) Another thing that I have learned is that no church is perfect. Unfortunately, there will always be something at every church that is not exactly what you would want. Again, having a good priest to help guide you can make the difference.

4) If your family is doing this with you, ask them for their opinions. When my mother and I were entering the Orthodox Church, I was 9. My mom was often times put-off be the "Greekitude (to use D.W.'s term)" of our church, but as a 9 year old I loved everything Greek. I immersed myself into Greek school, dancing, and the music and liturgics of the church. I don't think she would have wanted to take me away from something good like that interested me even though some of the people there weren't that inviting to non-Greeks (my mom's family is Carpatho-Russian). Once I graduated highschool, she did move over to the OCA, and I did as well.

Anyway, I hope this helps a little.

Sbdn. Anthony

[bestworkothlo]

Hi,

I am happy that I have choices actually. Maybe this is because growing up in communism we had no choice, and also religion was banned. This is why maybe I look at the bright side and am grateful to even have the possibility to be Orthodox and freedom to attend my Church. I am GO and my parish is GO, but I also go to the MP church nearby because I like it... it is all Orthodox to me. However I can understand Peter's feelings because I have moved a lot and I know that at first it is difficult to adjust - because of nostalgia I also romanticize many things I had in my past.

What I can recommend is to make yourself approachable, do not expect others to do what you are expected to do naturally in life (be social), do not feel embarrassed, or do not expect others to welcome you. Take matters in your hand and if you feel like it introduce yourself to others. I can tell that smiling also is contagious. Smile a lot!. It is just the beginning and things will resolve themselfes, and you will feel ok wherever you go.

Also keep in mind that you are pleasing God by going to Church, no matter where in Orthodox rich traditions. This is what counts for you and will be numbered as a good deed for you.

Also we have several memebers from Australia here. They are all lovely, wonderful people and thy will help you I am sure.

Have a blessed search

PS As Deacon Anthony above mentioned, do not try to find the perfect parish. That is setting expectations too high since parishes are people and we are all sinners.

[Vodonaeva]

A warm welcome to you, Peter. I am glad you are a part of this community, because you will receive such good support along your Christian journey. I can only share from my experience.

Maybe I am fortunate to not have much of a choice, as the closest Orthodox Church to me is 30 miles away and happens to be an Antiochian parish with many Arabic and Greek families. We have Arabic chanting which some do not enjoy but I have not had any issues with the cultural identities within the church. If the Lord Jesus Christ called you back home to the Faith through the glorious saints you mentioned, then it truly doesn't matter which Orthodox Church you worship with. If you visit a parish and know the presence of God and His angels, then that is where you should be, IMO.

For the first two years of my visits to St. George Orthodox Cathedral, I did not seek out relationships - I was friendly when spoken to, but I didn't go to church to make friends, I went to worship my God and to be healed. Through the Divine Liturgy, I did receive healing and now, years later, the resulting connections and friendships I've made have only been a bonus, not the primary reason for my attendance.

I guess what I'm trying to say is to go forward based on the tenets of your faith, within the worship community where you experience the presence of the Holy Trinity and all else will fall into place.

I wish you the best; May God shine His face upon you and your family during this transition.

[Cemeuncex]

Hello Peter, and welcome to the forum.

If you lived in South Australia, I could definitely help. Still, I do have feelers in what happens in the eastern states, so I'll see what I can find out for you. Nina's and Sbdcn Anthony's comments are also very good.

[Nothatspecial]

I so love Orthodoxy and studying the Holy Fathers and great Saints of the Orthodox Church.

Can someone please give me some advice on this matter?

Yours in Christ
peter

Is there any one of the Saints that you are particularly drawn to? Ask them for help. That's how we found our parish. There were many to choose from, but none were 'right' for us, according to our human logic. But God knows where we need to be, and the Saints do guide us, I do not know how. You will know when you find it.

Amy is right. It's not for making new relationships that I became Orthodox. If that were a factor in my conversion, I wouldn't have bothered converting, because I had many good friends already, and it was extremely difficult to tell them what was happening, without making them feel like we didn't like them and their 'style of worship' anymore. Good relationships are a bonus, but they're not vital.

Also, your discomfort could be from the fact that you're not yet familiar with 'how things are done'. Don't be afraid to ask what's expected of you. And don't try to puzzle out why things are done the way they are... sometimes there are understandable explanations, sometimes explanations won't make sense, sometimes it's a local tradition - just do it and it will become comfortable as it becomes more and more familiar. When I started out, I was careful to learn everything right, because I didn't want to offend anyone. Then, I noticed that the 'old timers' didn't all do the same things either. They even had major differences, like - the Russians made Pascha baskets with all kinds of food that's not good to eat at 3 am, but they had to do it. The Greeks didn't. We thought it would be fun, so we did. But we didn't like the Russian foods in our basket. So, our second Pascha, we filled our baskets with stuff that we wanted to eat at 3 am instead of what was 'supposed' to be in the basket! Ice cream. Hamburgers. And such.... =)

And...., in all the different parishes that I've visited - Greek, Russian, Antiochian, OCA, and monasteries too - I've found that people aren't generally offended if you do things differently, or dont' do anything at all and just watch. Most people, are just happy to have someone new visit and happier when new people stay.

At a monastery last summer, a guy visited, who was immersing himself into Bhuddism. He'd come to the services, and watch, and sometimes, he'd sit in weird positions. I had the opportunity to speak to him several times, and he told me, he was most amazed at the way he was received by the monks, that he had never felt so respected and loved.

There's room in the Church for everyone. Just come, watch and learn, and it will all grow on you, even the people. =)

In Christ,
Mary.

[diseeKeythilt]

Take your time. Choose the community you feel at home in. The spirit in the community. It is different, but dont expect coming to heaven, (although the Church is holy). As others have pointed out the priests caracther is important. Some priest are there for making money or just for expanding (political reasons). A multiethnical community is a good sign. If you can choose this, this is good. And maybe look for the roots in the community if you can. I dont know if the longest roots are the best. Dont think so, but check it out.

This is what i am used with. Some people f.ex in Belgrade go to different churches and it is not a problem. But I am happy I can stay where I was baptized (so i was lucky I didnt have to choose).

Anyway every Orthodox Church celebrates the Divine liturgy..., and that is good.

Peter

[ElcinBoris]

even had major differences, like - the Russians made Pascha baskets with all kinds of food that's not good to eat at 3 am, but they had to do it. The Greeks didn't.

In Christ,
Mary.

Ha ha ha Mary that is not a major difference. Just 'you wear brown and I wear red' kind of difference. It is not dogmatic :P Greeks cook and have meal at church afterward that is why there is no tradition of baskets. We eat the first Paschal meal as a community. We are taught to eat first the red egg so the body is not shocked after the long period of fasting and then we eat Mageritsa (Easter Lamb soup) these two are introducing slowly the food we avoided in the organism so we can really feast the next day. Now when I get all dressed up for Resurrection Service I do not want to get mageritsa with me in a basket, or cooler or whatever. (Because if it will fall over my clothes there will be only 2 scenarios: a) I have to go back home and shower and change and miss the Service. b) I go all smelly like mageritsa in church and I will cause others to miss the service. :P) And the priest blesses the food we start partaking after Lent. This is important. And this is why I like the Russian tradition as well because they bring the blessed baskets with its food at home so they bring blessing at home. Wish we could bring more blessing back home too. We bring only the red egg the priest gives us at the end of the Service and the light from the candle of Resurrection. But that counts also.

As you can see Peter W. all things Orthodox are wonderful and diverse and of course we do not go to church to create friendships as Amy said, and they are bonuses. I would add though that as humans we are social beings and all things impact us: the people, customs of a community and the relationship with that community. We come to Church for God and the salvation of our soul, but when we are in communion with God we are in communion and relationship with all Orthodox all over the world.

[fgfblog]

I'm not so dispassionate that I can say I don't seek friendships at Church. In fact, I would say that I do this to a fault.

American life and communities are very disjointed. It is easy to feel isolated and very much alone even in the "home townish" town where I live. It is doubly so because the people you meet everyday are involved in a very unhealthy lifestyle and they pursue it vigorously.

If you aren't interested in running at full speed next to them, they aren't interested in you, and even if you are, as soon as you run faster or slower or the path changes they discard the relationship like the wrapper a BigMac comes in.

My wife is particularly lonely because she moved to marry me (2000 miles from her family). We've since converted so all the relationships at our old Church are gone and since most of the friends I did have were college related that group has disappeared over the last 10-15 years.

If we don't form friendships at Church I fear we will have none at all. But even more than friendships, in a sense, we need a sense of family because my family, while closer than my wife's is smaller and still a 4 hour drive.

[pobrierce]

D. I totally understand you (and your wife) because I am someone who can't live without human relationships. I grew up with lots of family and friends around and since my grandmother lived with us and she was very social and had great circle of family and friends our front door was constantly open so to speak even at night. So you will find me talking randomly to people everywhere, always. My husband asks me daily "How many people did you meet today and how many did you befriend?" lol Also I moved here for him and I did not have any family and friends and this was painful at first, but I started being me. So at church I can't go and not be me. Although to be honest I have just a couple of friends, friends, from church and the majority are not from my church here now (we also have many older people in our parish or kids). While I recognize I go there for God, I can't change my personality (like a priest told me: God doesn't want you to be someone else) I will make friends. So do not feel pressure about it. And in the situation you are in you should make friends in your parish. You need friends. Who has found a friend has found a treasury says a proverb. Do not misunderstand me I like also to have my space and give my firends space but if you are social and extrovert be who you are. It is always becoming to be you.

[gimffnfabaykal]

As you can see Peter W. all things Orthodox are wonderful and diverse and of course we do not go to church to create friendships as Amy said, and they are bonuses. I would add though that as humans we are social beings and all things impact us: the people, customs of a community and the relationship with that community. We come to Church for God and the salvation of our soul, but when we are in communion with God we are in communion and relationship with all Orthodox all over the world.

Dear Amy, Nina and others

We also go to Church to be friends with each other and make friends. Just think about what you are saying when you say we dont go to church to make friends.

So this is not my experience. Because if more people are friends and have a relationship to each other the prayer goes better. Its a mystery. This is the ideal. Firstly we go to church to worship God, secondly we go to church to worship God and thirdly we go to church to be friends with each other in the community :P As Jesus said we ought to love God and also each other. Then we can feel that we are a part of the worldwide universal Orthodox Church. We have coffee-time after the service and this is good for the community. We also talk about spiritual things there from time to time. But I agree that in the churchroom you pray, as you are saying.

Peter

[Gasfghj]

Take your time. Choose the community you feel at home in. The spirit in the community. It is different, but dont expect coming to heaven, (although the Church is holy). As others have pointed out the priests caracther is important. Some priest are there for making money or just for expanding (political reasons). A multiethnical community is a good sign. If you can choose this, this is good. And maybe look for the roots in the community if you can. I dont know if the longest roots are the best. Dont think so, but check it out.

This is what i am used with. Some people f.ex in Belgrade go to different churches and it is not a problem. But I am happy I can stay where I was baptized (so i was lucky I didnt have to choose).

Anyway every Orthodox Church celebrates the Divine liturgy..., and that is good.

Peter

Take what I wrote above with a pinch of salt.

Generally I am polluting this site ,but these posts wasnt that bad. But anyway.

[NofFoomiTot]

I'm not so dispassionate that I can say I don't seek friendships at Church. In fact, I would say that I do this to a fault.

American life and communities are very disjointed. It is easy to feel isolated and very much alone even in the "home townish" town where I live. It is doubly so because the people you meet everyday are involved in a very unhealthy lifestyle and they pursue it vigorously.

If you aren't interested in running at full speed next to them, they aren't interested in you, and even if you are, as soon as you run faster or slower or the path changes they discard the relationship like the wrapper a BigMac comes in.

My wife is particularly lonely because she moved to marry me (2000 miles from her family). We've since converted so all the relationships at our old Church are gone and since most of the friends I did have were college related that group has disappeared over the last 10-15 years.

If we don't form friendships at Church I fear we will have none at all. But even more than friendships, in a sense, we need a sense of family because my family, while closer than my wife's is smaller and still a 4 hour drive.

I see that there are big cultural differences from where you live to where I live. And this plays a role.

[Ggskbpbz]

Ha ha ha Mary that is not a major difference. Just 'you wear brown and I wear red' kind of difference. It is not dogmatic :P

WHAT?!!! It's close to three years since I converted, and NOW you're telling me that Orthodoxy isn't about food?!

Dear Amy, Nina and others

We also go to Church to be friends with each other and make friends. Just think about what you are saying when you say we dont go to church to make friends.

Peter

Peter, I understand what you're saying. And I understand too, that we all agree that in Church, worshiping God is our priority, not making friends.

Perhaps it has to do with personality and culture and all that sort of stuff. I get along with everyone in our parish. They're all old enough to be my parents and older, so all I have to do is nod my head and listen to all their stories, and when I get tired of listening, we say goodbye and go home. Friends? According to my definition of 'friend', no. We're just co-worshipers. We talk, we laugh, we work together, we pray for each other, on Forgiveness Sunday, we ask each other for forgiveness, etc etc. But, I can't see a more intimate relationship than that, ever developing, just because, we have absolutely nothing in common. Other than food. =)

I haven't known them for long. They'll never be the first ones I run to, when I need to unburden my heart. A friend to me, is someone my heart is safe with. And although I know they won't trample on my heart, I don't trust them to understand me either. This kind of friendship, usually takes a long long time to develop, but I've known it to happen instantaneously too. But I think, it is the only true kind. I can't just call anybody my friend, just because we had a few laughs together. =)

Mary

PS - yes, I'm very picky (about my friends, not my food.) =)

[JonnLeejsp]

Peter Wale,

I might ask again on your next visit. You might need to knock twice on the door.

What Orthodox Churches are anywhere near you in Australia? Where would you normally go? Who would be your regular spiritual father? I would knock at their door too.

Yours,

Matthew

[AndyScouchek]

Mary, I enjoyed reading your post because I can relate. It reminded me of a favorite quote from George Washington,
"Friendship is a plant of slow growth and must undergo and withstand the shocks of adversity before it is entitled to the appellation."

Peter S., I hope to not convey the wrong message in what I said earlier. Certainly, yes, we have friends we worship with - I am so thankful for my close friends at church because these are generally the people with whom I can share my heart without fear of judgment. I am just saying that making friendships shouldn't be our primary reason for going to church. Otherwise, we could join a social/community club and have the same benefit. I believe friendships come naturally as a result of worshipping within the Body of Christ. The longer I live the more I believe in something I heard once, that we don't make friends, we recognize them.

[craditc]

Mary, I enjoyed reading your post because I can relate. It reminded me of a favorite quote from George Washington,
"Friendship is a plant of slow growth and must undergo and withstand the shocks of adversity before it is entitled to the appellation."

Peter S., I hope to not convey the wrong message in what I said earlier. Certainly, yes, we have friends we worship with - I am so thankful for my close friends at church because these are generally the people with whom I can share my heart without fear of judgment. I am just saying that making friendships shouldn't be our primary reason for going to church. Otherwise, we could join a social/community club and have the same benefit. I believe friendships come naturally as a result of worshipping within the Body of Christ. The longer I live the more I believe in something I heard once, that we don't make friends, we recognize them.

Dear Amy, Mary and others

Some of the members in my parish, in the core (the people who come often), I can trust with almost all of my heart, and my spiritual father and the deacon with all my heart if I want and dare. Some of the members, including one of the priests/my spiritual father and deacon have known me since I was a child. I am lucky... One of the serbian women give me food that I can warm up at home sometimes. They are so nice.

And you are right, we recognize friends.

Peter