[averkif]

If it is such a case probably try and confess to the Bishop and see what he advises.

I read in the lives of the saints to ask 3 times for forgiveness and if the other does not forgive then it is beyond that person's control because s/he has made the effort to reconcile but the other person doesn't respond. In the examples I have read the other person that didnt want to forgive didnt have a Christian ending to put it nicely. You can try and do a prayer i learnt from Fr Raphael Noica (yes i am name dropping here)

"Lord speak a truth into the heart of N, and speak a truth into my heart about N."

This prayer is used to prevent these bad thoughts and ill feelings between people.

Anyway an interesting note:

I read a story during St Mecury's time where an angel of God banned a priest and the priest banned the angel. Interesting to read and amazing and i am sure it's an authentic story.

[v74ClzKY]

just because a man is a bishop does not AUTOMATICALLY confer spiritual authority, anymore than receiving baptism and/or communion automatically confers salvation.

No, but it does confer (if that is the right word) spiritual responsibility and all of us in the Church under the responsibility of that bishop should, out of love (for God if not for him), do our best not to make his cross more heavy.

Let's take a hypothetical case. ... I would have stopped at the question to the priest about the prescription. What business is it of yours what that priest's physician prescribes for him? Who made you the one to diagnose drug dependancy and a mental illness, let alone prescribe a course of treatment? If, in fact, you happen to be a physician, you might have some resources that you can offer to help your priest, but it is up to him whether or not your offer would be helpful.

If your priest speaks with you privately seeking advice or help in coping with the difficulties of his duties as the administrator of the parish then help him. If you think the bishop needs to be informed, then inform him (with the knowledge of your priest that you are doing so) but do so in a manner which is not accusing but rather simply say that you have some concerns about the situation of the priest and would like to know how you can help.

So decency and order is important but always has to be weighed against other factors. And there is the external order which cannot and should not be confused with everything looking good on the surface while underneath there is a whole bunch of internal disorder. Decency and order is not just "important" but it is an apostolic commandment. Just because one person or another (be it bishop, monk, layman or whoever) ignores the commandment or fulfills it poorly does not mean that we should toss it out. The resulting chaos will only exacerbate whatever problems are already there.

Fr David Moser

[ZIDouglas]

This is the key point, I think, but it also presumes or requires some degree of spiritual maturity and discernment on the part of the layman who is going to the monk in the first place -- to recognize the problem and back off. And I think the general failure of training the layman in basic inner spiritual principles is part of the problem. This lack of training, and the assumption that one becomes spiritually mature just by attending church, is a grave error.

Every patristic sermon I am familiar with includes some dimension of instruction in the virtues, the inner virtues if you will, and I would say this is an area worthy of improvement by our seminaries and clergy and bishops. I hate to sound like such a critic -- I am a frustrated preacher I suppose -- but it would be better if most of our clergy simply read a sermon by one of the Church fathers than try to do what they are doing. By the grace of God I have rarely encountered any Orthodox sermon that I would deem heretical, and this alone counts for much, but no effective sermon exists without some element of pathos.

[BundEnhamma]

Hahaha ... really .. I want to back up Father Moser ... he is absolutely right in what he has shared with us and we need to take heed and listen.

No one should end up with a monastic elder unless he has approached his own parish priest or local priest and received the blessing to do so in the first instance ...

So ultimately it does come down to hierarchy and also we are not a position to condemn or judge those who are in the hierarchy. We are only concerned with their position and the role that they play rather than whether they are spiritually perfect, saints or sinners - that is between them and God.

The Church is very formal about structure and there is Scriptural evidence for this too ... the problems do not lie in the hierarchy but with us - who can not accept IN HUMILITY those who God ordains and the structure God himself has placed ... I am guilty of this but at least I am strong enough to point out that I see how wrong we are in wanting to change this structure because it doestn make sence to us.

Saint Nektarios is the best example of this argument ... I always refer to his life story ... the humility he displays towards the Church is second to none ... even though they were truly lacking spiritual responsibility towards him ... he still obeyed everything they asked of him and did nothing out of his own will - just because it appeared better.

The true Christian fight (and Im still struggling to achieve this) is to be able to find God in the middle of hell not in the middle of heaven :-) it is not who you know that makes you worthy of God's Mercy but it is your struggle and your humility .... your spiritual father could be the biggest sinner in the world but if your struggles in Christ are sincere and worthy ... then you can become a saint contrast this with a holy spiritual father ... if you do not struggle in obedience and humility you wont become a saint just because he might be!! :-)

[Uhmavano]

Dear friends,

My prayers with all in congratulations on the feast.

I've only just returned, and am reading through several hundred posts: while I agree very much with, and appreciate, the comments on the distinction between spiritual and ecclesiastical authority in the above (which are very important), I wanted just to emphasise one 'practical' point. Namely, that in the matter of a 'ban' (i.e. against receiving communion), the priest always has this 'authority' since he is the one given charge of the Mysteries during the Liturgy itself (unless, of course, a bishop is serving), for their protection against desecration and the protection of the faithful against spiritual damage through unfitting reception. Whether he is the spiritual father of the person approaching for communion or not, whether that person is in his diocese or not, does not alter this: at the chalice, the priest has the duty to distibute the holy gifts for the life of the world, of the person, and not for its destruction. If this means a 'ban' for some cause, then this is his right (rather, his obedient obligation) to impose it, and ours to accept.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[pedFlicle]

There's a prayer of absolution read over everyone at Great Compline at least in Lent (IIRC) that asks God to pardon those who have been placed under the ban of a priest or have fallen under their own anathema. I always found this to be very interesting, but I'm not sure how it works out practically.

[ordercigsnick]

There's a prayer of absolution read over everyone at Great Compline at least in Lent (IIRC) that asks God to pardon those who have been placed under the ban of a priest or have fallen under their own anathema. I always found this to be very interesting, but I'm not sure how it works out practically.

I'm not familiar with this practice - I would guess that it is in the Byzantine tradition (as opposed to the Slavic tradition)? The prayer that you mention sounds to me like the prayer of absolution read over the body of the departed at a funeral, just before the last kiss. Can anyone shed some light on the origin or development of this practice?

Fr David Moser

[pipitous]

If anyone has Bishop Basil's Liturgikon, it may be in there.