[xqkAY7Lg]

Remember, it's only an "illegal" strike because Campbell's government arbitrarily made it illegal - an action which has been condemned by the International Labour Organization, an agency of the United Nations.

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[clitlyphype]

Anything is only "illegal" because some government has made it illegal by enacting some law. That's what governments do, as representatives of the people. They don't need to consult with every interest group before making a law, I don't think. There are a few ways to deal with an unpopular law: Speak up loud and clear (and legally) about why it's bad and try to get people on your side to change it; act illegally through civil disobedience and suffer the consequences before gaining enough support to have the laws changed; or vote the bastards out of office at the first chance you get. Or all of the above, I suppose. There are checks and balances even in Canada! The government won't risk doing something too unpopular lest it get booted out of office on the next go-around.

[ReneCM]

Chip, I'm not so sure I agree with your police work. The amount of "chances" the BCTF has had to negotiate with the government becomes increasingly irrelevant when the government continues to ram legislated contracts down their throats.

And I guess you must be talking to one of the 35 out of 42 000 teachers who crossed the picket line? There is OVERWHELMING solidarity among teachers on this strike. Also incredible public support, despite the premier's hypocritical bullshit about the "illegal" strike. He said that he's willing to discuss their grievences, but that the legislated contract will stand. Basically: "Teachers, go ahead and bitch all you want, it doesn't make a lick of difference to me. Go fuck yourselves."

Your points about high pay start to break down when you look at what coaches and teachers like, say, my Dad ACTUALLY put into their programs. I think my Dad's music hours have been cut back to 35 min per week per student. He runs an extracurricular ukulele group and choir with 70 students, with rehearsals Tuesday and Thursday mornings... he's taking them to Hawaii this year. I can't even begin to guess what kind of extra hours he puts in. I don't even think HE knows anymore. And he's by no means a special case. Do you know what it takes to get a provincial basketball or volleyball winning team to the nationals? What about mounting a production of a Shakespeare play? Ski team? Golf club? Art shows? Band concerts? All done on volunteer hours from teachers. Are these things not important to you, Chip? I think I know you well enough to say that you wouldn't be down with these things being eliminated from school programs. But guess what... that's what is going to happen. My Dad has told me he can't in good conscience continue to do what he does if the government is not going to respect him enough to give him a contract that has been negotiated. I know a lot of the other teachers who coach and put these types of insane hours in on extracurricular activities feel the same way. And why not?

Now, I stood out on the picket lines with my Dad last and his colleagues last week in my little hometown and watched the cars go by, honking and waving. I know that people in this province KNOW that what these people do is important, and they deserve better than an autocratic settlement handed down from on high, don't they?

I think these current difficulties are rather demonstrative of our society's move away from valuing education in general, and specifically in the arts and sciences that is particularly troubling to me. We're either heading for a rennaissance of epic proportions, or we're going to see society going further and further down the tubes. I think treating teacher's like trained animals in a circus is a step in the wrong direction.

Admittedly my bias, and my pedantic and opinionated tone is the result of being raised by a rowdy clan of secular socialist intellectuals. Just my 2c.

[Blotassefesek]

Ok Morgan you're absolutely right. Nobody wants Arts and Music and Sports programs cut. And Teachers like your Dad and the wonderful ones I've had over the years have made me appreciate the hard work they do in their regular classes and extra-curricular activities. However, all teachers are definately not that commited. There is also a large contingent of teachers who show up at 8:55am and leave right at 3:10pm. Your Dad's uber-high level of commitment is, dare I say, not the norm.

I would say the negotiating process would be challenging with the Liberals trying to impose a contract on the teachers, especially with salary increases as the top priority for teachers. But how, for example, do you think the nurses feel? I have an idea. How about the teachers give back one or two professional development days a year? They have quite a few already over the course of the year and I think giving one back might be a good faith move on the teachers behalf. But will they? Of course not. Negotiating is give and take, but they won't even budge on salary issues. In terms of their illegal strike... Nobody is higher than the law (including Gordo). I think that putting the pressure on parents and kids, especially those trying to graduate in the near future, is not a plan of action that is going to garner a lot of sympathy from taxpayers.

By the way, Thank you Kelly for your kind words. I find intellectual debate far more entertaining when we can all be civil with one another.

[hernkingAnank]

Right on! - go get 'em teachers. Break laws not people - Yeah! Lets have a general strike in this province and show this moron in Victoria that good people can't be pushed around.

YEAH! - Now who's with me!?

[hernkingAnank]

I grew up in an artists home. The political demographic was left of center, consistantly. I grew up with the realization that if you were a person with ultra conservative views you likely had little time for the imagination. Whether you agree with me or not, that was my experience. Organized philosophies and round table discussion of issues of science fiction to the mind of a child often seemed surreal to me but the passion you couldn't deny.

So, I'm of the belief that not only does this discussion have a place in this forum, but by and large most Jazz Musicians I've ever known have had a parallel perspective about these issues of politics. They feel the need to be protective of the opportunities of our children (for their creative future) and for our teachers (who gave us the faith to persue)

I don't cater personally to the Social Credit type government we endure now - the BC Liberals who have to have THAT distinction so as not to be confused with the political philosophies of the Federal Liberals. And I don't cater to short term political thinking either when it comes to education in this province as it takes away vision and ambition. That's my opinion. If you don't agree with it I could care less. If you have a real problem with it then I figure you can't play.

Brian - don't worry - you were right of course.

Cam.

[8cyVn4RJ]

Count me in.

I think it is important to make a distinction between opposing a law merely for personal convenience versus doing so on moral grounds. This is ostensibly a democracy, which means that in theory, we citizens are in charge. Every so often we elect representatives who are meant to enact laws on our behalf. Sometimes they do so for other reasons, and often seem to forget who they work for. In such cases, it is the duty of those concerned to stand up for themselves and oppose unjust laws. Laws are made by humans and are inherently flawed. They are blunt instruments and as such are not perfect. Common sense must prevail.

This so-called Liberal regime in Victoria has demonstrated since before they were elected that they have their own agenda. They co-opted the previous Liberal party's name in order to conceal their real identity, which is the Undead Socreds. I have been repeatedly disappointed by the unwillingness of the BC people to stand up to them. I hope this time will be different.

As I said, Count Me In.

KL

[Blotassefesek]

I think its tough to talk about democracy and the democratic process when less then half the teachers union actually chose to vote on the strike action. This is not merely a Liberal government issue, the NDP (everyone's favorite party, except when they were actually in charge) has spoken out on the teachers strike and the negative impact it has on parents and students. This has nothing to do with being ultra-conservative. You can't just stop working whenever you feel like it because you don't like your current salary. What if the RCMP or Vancouver Police went on strike in the same way? I bet you wouldn't be as supportive if your personal safety was wasn't garaunteed.

[8cyVn4RJ]

Speaking for myself, I am not an NDP supporter, either. I think that most, if not all, of the parties in all jurisdictions have their agenda and simply reducing it down to blindly supporting one party or another is just an excuse not to think for yourself. Furthermore, I think that anyone with a just grievance has the right not to work. Equating the impact of a strike by teachers to one by police is a bit silly, but that is just the sort of thing the Hoardin'-Gordons of BC are trying to do.

For what it's worth, I have spoken to over a dozen teachers about this and they are all firmly behind the strike. I would bet that those who chose not to vote did so largely because they justifiably felt uneasy about the amount of support they would get. Not voting for something is NOT the same as voting against it. Let's not let them down, now that they are standing firm.

It comes down to this government feeling that they can do what they want and get away with it. We can't wait for an election to set them straight. If they get away with this one, they will just move on the the next target, in their agenda of securing their right to hoard and control.

I wonder if Gord went to public or private school....

[xqkAY7Lg]

Who was it . . Churchill? . . that said something like democracy is a terrible system but it's better than all the others? More people voted against the Liberals than for them in the last election, yet they have a majority government. Something like 90% of teachers that voted, voted to walk out.That's our system.

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[ReneCM]

Bravo...

See Chip, the thing is that the strike is only "illegal" because the "Liberal" government has designated education as an essential service, basically the only reason they did this is so they could throw the collective bargaining process out the window and do what they want. So all this handwringing about teachers breaking the law is pretty much bullshit. Of course, Gary Mason doesn't mention this in one of the most bizzarre Globe and Mail columns I've ever read. Anyone catch that one?

We're going to see the anti-teacher rhetoric amped up in media of all kinds coming up here. I have a feeling, unfourtunately, that this may turn the tide of public support. I hope people can see through the transparent and specious arguments of these government mouthpieces.

What the teachers are doing is righteous, even if it's "illegal". The judge could have crushed the union and she didn't, why not? Because she recognizes that occasionally bad laws are going to need to be broken in order for change to come about.

Just out of curiosity, anybody break any bad laws lately? *cough cough*

[Blotassefesek]

But Morgan, It is the right of government to change the laws. That is their job. How do you think the nurses feel? They got a zero increase too as did other public employees. In terms of collective bargaining, the teachers won't move even slightly on the issue of a bigger salary. They got a chance to sit down with the government and discuss the issues, not once, but 35 times! Where's the give and take? Its extremely hard to bargain when both sides aren't willing to budge.

In terms of breaking unjust laws, if someone chooses to, say, smoke marijuana, it doesn't affect everyone else in the province.

[xresultsearch]

The state of louisiana finally repealed it's anti-sodomy statutes a couple of years ago.

Kinda takes some of the fun out of it, actually.

[xresultsearch]

Chip,

If you'll glance a little further up the thread, you'll see Brian has kindly posted the multiple rebukes levelled against the BC government by the ILA.

I find it ironic that a government that routinely rips up legally binding, openly negotiated contracts with it's employees suddenly gets the vapors when some of these same employees decide they've had enough.

[xresultsearch]

Here it is again, just in case you overlooked it.


"Geneva, Switzerland - The International Labour Organization has slammed the British Columbia government for trampling the rights of workers guaranteed by the United Nations convention on freedom of association.

The UN convention of the ILO — # 87 - Freedom of Association and Protection of the Right to Organize Convention (1948) — was signed by Canada and all 10 provinces in 1972.

It applies to all levels of government within the country.

In uncharacteristically blunt language, the ILO has ruled that the Liberal government of Premier Gordon Campbell repeatedly violated the rights of thousands of provincial employees by refusing to negotiate contracts with their unions, and by using the legislature to arbitrarily enforce its will. "

[8cyVn4RJ]

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