[xqkAY7Lg]

"The only reason this strike is 'illegal' is because the liberal government abused legislative power to designate teachers as 'essential service'. The "BC government has ignored 9 rulings and directives from the UN (ILO) regarding violations of worker's rights in a democratic society, including one that states teachers are not essential service, and that this designation should be withdrawn and teachers democratic rights to bargain and to strike be restored. This government is increasingly operating like a dictatorship. Abusing legislative power to make laws that violate worker's democratic rights in order to meet their political agenda puts BC in the company of Chile, Argentina, and Venezuela, Guatemala. This government needs to repeal Bill 12, meet with the teachers, and negotiate in good faith. The Liberal government needs to do this to restore some vestige of faith in the BC government's adherence to the principles of the democratic society that all Canadians are proud of. Teachers are standing up for all of us on this point in the face of harassement and bullying by this government." -Rick Rivet

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"When you're a law-abiding citizen, you don't get to pick and choose which laws you want to abide by." -- Mike de Jong

"There is an obvious parallel between the impending teacher protest and the softwood lumber dispute. In both cases, a powerful group refused to honour a contract which was signed in good faith. Both parties on the losing end engaged in due process to protest the injustice. BOTH brought their grievance before an international body (both the NAFTA ruling and the essential service legislation were declared to be unjust, the latter by the UN). Again, in both cases, the ruling was ignored, downplayed, and rationalized.

"Apparently Mike de Jong, ironically a pointman in both disputes, is quite comfortable playing both victim and aggressor. Even as government demands justice from NAFTA and tobacco companies, it withholds justice from the people educating its children. This government's duplicitous approach to contractual agreements ought to be seen as the issue central to the current labour dispute. This is a government that does not honour its contracts. All of the current disputes in education stem from the essential service legislation and the teachers' contract that was torn up two years ago. And if a contract that was good for the Liberals expires, they'll just un-expire it. So who exactly, Mr. de Jong, is picking and choosing?" - Wes Hiebert

Some links . . .

Blogs

[Blotassefesek]

What does this have to do with Jazz music in Vancouver?

[BritneySpearsFun@@@]

Well Chip...
I'm a musician by trade in large part because of my high school music program. I'm sure I'm not the only one. High school music programs help make our future audiences and our future colleagues.

That's what this has to do with jazz in Vancouver.

[Blotassefesek]

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[xqkAY7Lg]

Nothing's being shoved down anyone's throat. You're free to ignore any topic in the forum index.

In my opinion "jazz" and "life" are not separate and unrelated. The actions of governments and others have profound consequences, affecting just about everything we do and how we live. Dictatorships are not usually friendly to jazz or art in general.

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[xresultsearch]

I was a TOC for three years (1999-2002) in district 39 in Vancouver. I knew a lot of teachers who were less than thrilled with BCTF's radical stance on many issues (I was one of them) but we all agreed that the employer (B.C. government) were jerks of the first water, a sackfull of bastards unparallel, and that we'd be nuts to trust them.

Just for the record, I'd like to set straight a few myths that get tossed around in this debate.

1. Teachers get three months holidays:

Not in my districts they didn't. What we got was three months of being unemployed every summer. Mid July to the end of October is a long time to go without a paycheck.

2. Teachers are already well paid:

Yes, some of them are. A teacher in the B.C. public system with ten years full time seniority, with a masters degree, who is a department head, makes about $60,000 a year. Starting wages for a full time teacher were about $32,000 a year(depending on the district) when I worked in the system.

Unfortunately almost nobody gets a full time gig right away. Of the 28 people in my 'music cohort' at UBC (which included jazzers Bill Clark and Bruce Neilsen) only 2 got full time jobs. The rest of us either got part time work (Bruce got a 2 day a week gig at Emily Carr Elementary) or went on the sub list. I subbed for three years and averaged about $12,000 a year doing it.

Think about that. 4 years of university (undergraduate B.ms) 2 years more university (B.Ed) and your starting wage is 12 thousand bucks.

3. Teachers have jobs for life:

That's a laugh. There's layoff's happening all the time. And there's a lot of 'hidden downsizing' especially in arts programs, where music departmnts get chopped and cut back (along with the teachers wages) until they just disappear. I can think of two high schools right off the top of my head where this has happened.

There's lots of issues here besides money. But you'd never know it from reading the newspapers or watching TV, because the mainstream media tend to present only the most sensationalistic aspects of the conflict. The real stuff is in the (boring) details.


I suspect what's happening here is the government is giving the BCTF plenty of rope to hang themselves with, with an eye to busting the union. They'll pull a Reagan, fire everybody. 10 years from now, the B.C. public school system will look like public schools in any major American city. No union. Abysmal educational standards. Every parent who can beg, borrow or steal the tuition puts their kid in a private school.

[w3QHxwNb]

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[w3QHxwNb]

I forgot to mention, when comparing teacher salaries across canada, keep in mind cost of living. A competitive wage must account for cost of living.
Kelly Proznick

[Blotassefesek]

Wow... I really opened up a can of worms here. John... nobody is talking about teachers getting 3 months unpaid "vacation". Every one who becomes a teacher knows that going in, and most teachers budget themselves accordingly. So that is a non-issue. But how about this? You address my comments like "why did less than half the teachers union engage in the voting process?" and I'll address your points. ok?

Kelly, I feel for you. I have an ugly student debt that I have begun paying off as well. As for cost of living concerns, Yeah Vancouver is expensive, but you know that and choose to live here anyway. I'm sure the cost of living in say Calgary is a lot lower... but so is the money that you would be making.

another thing... Brian, Yodi2 made a really good post concerning the economic issues involved with choosing to live in BC. He criticized a point you made earlier and his message was deleted. Just remember- "Dictatorships are usually not friendly to Jazz or Art in general"

[clitlyphype]

Has it been proven that smaller class size increases quality of learning? I think there are studies supporting both sides. I know in Asia the class sizes are humongous and their students consistently out-perform our students in things like math and science. I also took some classes in theatres in university and just from personal experience, I much preferred those to the small conference table where the prof could look you in the eye and know your name. I was too intimidated to do well in those classes. Give me anonymity anyday!

Generally speaking, I agree with Chip, but disagree in making it a left-right issue. I consider myself a leftie (on most issues) and wouldn't vote for Gordon Campbell or his "Liberals" if you paid me.

[xresultsearch]

Well Chip, I know longer teach in Vancouver so I have no firm data on why there was such a low turnout.

Unless there have been big changes since I did teach here though, I suspect a fair number of folks couldn't make the vote because they were still teaching off-timetable band classes.

What's your point? There have been plenty of municipal, provincial and federal elections with similarly low turnouts. Does that mean the parties elected have no mandates.

There are no doubt plenty of teachers who are not enthusiastic supporters of the strike, for many different reasons. But my own personal, totally subjective experience has been that there are few teachers who have a benign view of the provincial government.


I have my own, fairly complex view of a lot of these issues, which I don't really have time to go into right now (I've got a rehearsal to go to), but big picture, it really pisses me off to watch the Cambell-ites continually re-frame the debate in the most bogus and simple minded way. It an illegal strike? Well, of course it is, cause you mo fos changed the law.

I live in the US now, so I get all the Orwellian Doublespeak I need from Karl Rove and his band of rat-f*&ckers.



p.s.

I have no idea what teachers make in Calgary. Do you? It might be more.
My cousin Katie teaches up in Quesnel, bought a house 10 years ago for $30,000, and makes more than a Vancouver teacher.

[w3QHxwNb]

There are arguments for both sides regardng class sizes. Keep in mind that in university courses that are huge, the professors have teaching assistants who do alot of the time-consuming work such as marking. Universities are populated by the educational (or financial) elite, so there are fewer students who need extra support. This is where learning conditions and working conditions are impossible to separate. We can argue the pros and cons of larger class sizes for students. For a teacher, a larger class size with no aides and students with language, behavior and learning difficulties becomes an unmanagable and stressful situation. Not only do I feel that I can't meet the needs of my students, I am constantly on the edge. I am lucky that I teach a subject which students choose. They generally work with me to make the classroom a fun and productive place to spend time.

[xresultsearch]

As someone who now teaches at a university I can tell you that the difference is like night and day. The kind of 'classroom management' issues that consume so much of teacher's time are simply not an issue with me. As Kelly points out (and as anyone who has stood in front of a high school band class will know from experience) being the focal point of all that jittery, unfocussed teenage energy can really take it out of you.

As a university instructor I also work a lot less. A full-time high school music gig usually involves 4 blocks of classes one day and two the next, on a "day one/day two" schedule (this insane system insures that your two blocks of 'prep time' never fall on the same day of the week). Smart band directors also tend to take on a lot of off-timetable, extra stuff, because the bigger your department is the harder it is for admin to attack you come the (inevitable) cutbacks (since music and art in general are considered 'frills').Add in individual coaching and fundraising for band trips and you've got some long days. When I subbed for Brent Taylor at Point Grey, for example, the day started around 7:00 a.m. and on alternate days ended about 5:30. When I did Victor Guy's job, lunchtime consisted of getting in the car and driving over to Strathcona Elementary to conduct beginner band.

At Tulane, I direct two combo rehearsals a week, and deliver two 90 minute jazz history lectures a week. That's it. Total time standing in front of students, about 6 hours a week. Any high school band director does 3 times that.

Sure, I spend more time grading papers, and I'm dealing with issues, both musical and academic, on a much higher level of discourse. But all things considered, university teaching is a breeze when it comes to the heavy lifting part. It cracks me up to hear my colleagues complain about the work load.

[w3QHxwNb]

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[w3QHxwNb]

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[GroosteFoessy]

I, for one, hope to read all of Yodi's comments in therir unedited glory. If ever there was an argument for good teaching in this province, it's grammar like Yodi's which leads to incomprehensible babbling.

We dont make life even harder for that single mom who needs her children to be in school so she can go work for her 10 bucks an hour to keep food in their mouths and a roof over their head because lord knows the cost of living is going up but her minimum wage aint.

His arguments (like the one above) are also highly entertaining, as he attempts to defend the very right-wing agenda that has oppressed minimum wage-earners in the first place.

Bravo, Yodi! Chase your tail, and bite, bite, bite!

[BritneySpearsFun@@@]

I need to take a little break from this important debate and stand up for my partner.

Yodi2,

Refering to Kellyp as "Sunshine" and "Sister" in your post is completely unexceptable. You are entitled to your opinions about teachers and their strike but not at the expense of individuals on this forum. This forum is great place for debate and should be used for this purpose. However, it is no place to be attacking an individual in a demeaning fashion. As a member of this community I would ask that you take this into consideration in the future.

Yours Truely,

Jesse Cahill

[8cyVn4RJ]

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[clitlyphype]

Gotta agree with Jesse. And Brian. I can understand why Brian deleted the first message. I don't think it had anything to do with the reasoning behind the message. It's all in the delivery. Yodi could have made the exact same points without being antagonistic and demeaning, and along the way maybe would have changed a few minds (although I doubt anyone's changing their minds on this issue). And besides, yes, we all choose (more or less) what we do with our lives, but that doesn't mean we can't work to try to make it better. That's what the teachers are doing... Hey, wait a second! What side am I on?!

Oh, and to John: Yes, profs have it easier with their TAs, but the class sizes in some subjects is way more than twice the size of the biggest high school class. And from what I understand, the BC teachers have been fighting class size increases since 1969, if not earlier. I started my schooling in 1969 and never thought any of my classes were particularly big. And I went on a European tour with my high school band of over 100! Dave Dunnett was a god, though, not a mere mortal teacher.

[8cyVn4RJ]

...at a news conference Premier Campbell said there is "no excuse to break the law and show such flagrant contempt for the courts of British Columbia."...