[MannoFr]

RealClearPolitics - Obama's Speech on the End of Operation Iraqi Freedom

I didnt really watch the whole thing as it was pretty boring and nothing new. The only comment I have is when he said this was a historic moment, I tried to imagine anyone remembering this moment in 50 years and couldnt do it. Nothing has really changed except a date ticked over and some paper was shuffled. We still have a mission in Iraq. I also would have liked to have seen him lead a moment of silence for Americans who have died in Iraq.

Your thoughts?

[Zdfjpbth]

I am starting to think not near enough people understand what "the End of Operations Iraqi Freedom" really means. There is still plenty of work to do and the 'war' is far from over for the something like 50K people (anyone know the real number? The media can't seem to agree on this), and their families, that are still going to be over there in various support roles. Anyway, it was not some historic moment. It was just a date in which the conflict, for the US, has changed a little. Not all that much but enough to remove certain forces from the fight. Politics is the take away here, not much else. Which is sad when thinking about this in terms of the sacrifice these troops and their families have made, and will continue to have to endure both in Iraq and Afghanistan. As for the speech itself... I am in mid debate myself on how I feel about what all he said.

[nizcreare]

Sluggo, et al,

There is a missing perception.

I am starting to think not near enough people understand what "the End of Operations Iraqi Freedom" really means. There is still plenty of work to do and the 'war' is far from over for the something like 50K people (anyone know the real number? The media can't seem to agree on this), and their families, that are still going to be over there in various support roles. Anyway, it was not some historic moment. It was just a date in which the conflict, for the US, has changed a little. Not all that much but enough to remove certain forces from the fight. Politics is the take away here, not much else. Which is sad when thinking about this in terms of the sacrifice these troops and their families have made, and will continue to have to endure both in Iraq and Afghanistan. As for the speech itself... I am in mid debate myself on how I feel about what all he said.

(COMMENT)

Make no mistake --- the War is over. It has been over for several years. With the defeat of the conventional Opposing Force (OPFOR), the capture of Saddam, the destruction of the capacity and ability to wage war, the Post-Combat Phase began.

There may be some discussion on the successful way in which the US implemented the Post-Combat operations; political and military decisions that gave rise to the domestic insurgency; but the War ended when Iraq lost the ability and capacity to wage war.

The inability of the US to stabilize Iraq, install an honest government, and benefit the people of Iraq, is an entirely different issue. Those issues are directly related to US competency. There were critical mistakes made.


Sometimes, the best intentions turn-out poor results. But when the intentions are confused in the beginning, the results may be chaos.

'EXCERPT: Iraqis are conflicted as U.S. combat mission ends: By Liz Sly, Los Angeles Times'

"It would have been better if they didn't come, but now that they're here, they should stay," said Ali, 44, a wedding musician who hated Saddam Hussein, yet fondly remembers the days when the dictator was in control, the days before the chaos set in.

"How can the Americans leave when we don't have a government, don't have a state?" asked Hafedh Zubaidi, 39, who sells mattresses in Baghdad's middle-class Karada district and is deeply anxious about the future given the political stalemate over the formation of a government six months after national elections.
"We thought things were really going to be better when the Americans came, and instead they brought us only sorrow," he said. "But if they leave now, there will be no Iraq."
"The Americans came here and did all of this," he said, a question mark rising in his voice. "And now they are leaving?"

World (COMMENT)

The Iraqis, after seven (7) years, expected so much more and had hoped the Americans would have done so much better.

'EXCERPT: Gates, in Iraq, Takes the Long View: By ELISABETH BUMILLER, New York Times'

In markedly anti-triumphal remarks on Wednesday morning to reporters in Ramadi, the provincial capital of Anbar Province and the scene of some of the fiercest fighting of the war, Mr. Gates said that while American service men and women “have accomplished something really quite extraordinary here, how it all weighs in the balance over time I think remains to be seen.”
Asked directly if the war had been worth it, Mr. Gates replied, “It really requires a historian’s perspective in terms of what happens here in the long run.”
The war, he added, “will always be clouded by how it began,” — that is, he said, the premise on which it was justified, Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction, which did not exist. “This is one of the reasons that this war remains so controversial at home,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/02/wo...2military.html
We hope that Iraq will evolve. But clearly, some Iraqis don't hold that same expectation. Even the Administration does not want to go on the record as to the legitimacy of the war or the outcome. The beginning was tainted and the exceptionally poor implementation of Post-Conflict restoration efforts (Military & Diplomatically) combine to give us the results we see today. While it's true, that the Historical Account might give a different perspective, it is in doubt even now by senior officials.

Most Respectfully,
R

[Stengapsept]

I didn't watch it since Presidential speeches bore me to death and this whole thing is largely ceremonial and thus, kinda pointless to me. Maybe when we're actually out of Iraq, I'll pay more attention.

[Yfclciak]

A truism:

You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear !

I have supported Obama right up to this time but couldn't even continue to listen to his rhetoric about our success in Iraq (especially when he tilted his head back and spoke down his nose). I think the war was wrong but had he said "We believe we have secured control of the second largest oil reserve in the world and thus have helped preserve the security of our nation" I would have thought ("all things considered he may be right but in the end have we really secured anything ? )

I think the Republicans are lower than "Whale Shit in the Ocean" and played an extremely large part in getting us into the fix we're in but "selectively" may prove the better choice if they had any program other than NO and got rid of "BONER" and some other perennial slugs !

IMO we as a nation are collectively "as f'd up as hogans goat' and I may just go fishing this time around.

[Triiooman]

Skeptic don't be so sure that oil reserve is secured. I was mostly impressed with how he hired up the Pottery Barn to redecorate the Oval Office.

[*Playergirl*]

A truism:

You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear !

I have supported Obama right up to this time but couldn't even continue to listen to his rhetoric about our success in Iraq (especially when he tilted his head back and spoke down his nose). I think the war was wrong but had he said "We believe we have secured control of the second largest oil reserve in the world and thus have helped preserve the security of our nation" I would have thought ("all things considered he may be right but in the end have we really secured anything ? )

I think the Republicans are lower than "Whale Shit in the Ocean" and played an extremely large part in getting us into the fix we're in but "selectively" may prove the better choice if they had any program other than NO and got rid of "BONER" and some other perennial slugs !

IMO we as a nation are collectively "as f'd up as hogans goat' and I may just go fishing this time around.

Why do you insist on repeating the GOP has no plans other than NO when you know that to be the case? Hundreds of posts have showed you the exact plans, and yet you continue to repeat this? What exactly do you need to see to get you to stop denying it?

[Eagevawax]

It was a very typical presidential address. Nothing really worth mentioning.

[Gremlinn]

Why do you insist on repeating the GOP has no plans other than NO when you know that to be the case? Hundreds of posts have showed you the exact plans, and yet you continue to repeat this? What exactly do you need to see to get you to stop denying it?

Something factual not more hot air from balloons with holes in them.

[SantaGanstag]

I have supported Obama right up to this time but couldn't even continue to listen to his rhetoric about our success in Iraq (especially when he tilted his head back and spoke down his nose). I think the war was wrong but had he said "We believe we have secured control of the second largest oil reserve in the world and thus have helped preserve the security of our nation" I would have thought ("all things considered he may be right but in the end have we really secured anything ? )

Oh, dear Lord, are there really still people so utterly uninformed that they think we get significant amounts of oil from Iraq?

Of the 10,863,000 barrels of petroleum we import every day, 505,000 come from Iraq. That's about 4.6%.

Crude Oil and Total Petroleum Imports Top 15 Countries

Boy, we sure are just sucking that Iraqi oil dry now that we've "secured" it, aren't we?

I think you're on the right track when you contemplate going fishing this time around......

[dwestemesse]

Why do you insist on repeating the GOP has no plans other than NO when you know that to be the case? Hundreds of posts have showed you the exact plans, and yet you continue to repeat this? What exactly do you need to see to get you to stop denying it?

When we... the GOP... agree with HIM!

Which we likely never will...

[CuittisIL]

Speaking of that, where's my free oil we supposedly got by imperially taking over Iraq as has been alleged? Someone better tell the Stryker Brigade to get their asses back into Iraq.

[laperuzdfhami]

Something factual not more hot air from balloons with holes in them.

Have you not read any of the legislation GOP members submitted? What about Ryans plan? You are either knowingly denying the existance of GOP idea, are purposefully ignorant. Which is it?

[zueqhbyhp]

Oh, dear Lord, are there really still people so utterly uninformed that they think we get significant amounts of oil from Iraq?

Of the 10,863,000 barrels of petroleum we import every day, 505,000 come from Iraq. That's about 4.6%.

Crude Oil and Total Petroleum Imports Top 15 Countries

Boy, we sure are just sucking that Iraqi oil dry now that we've "secured" it, aren't we?

I think you're on the right track when you contemplate going fishing this time around......

If you will read my post as you would if you were to be examined in respect to content... I believe I said they have the second highest proven reserves. Not shipments of product. The point of course was to suggest other than that potential for our use we have little if anything to crow about. I will check my post for errors. Note Richyrich read it correctly !

P.S. A new well in Canada has just put them in second place !

[cokLoolioli]

Why do you insist on repeating the GOP has no plans other than NO when you know that to be the case? Hundreds of posts have showed you the exact plans, and yet you continue to repeat this? What exactly do you need to see to get you to stop denying it?

You mean continuation of the plans that would be a continuation of the ones we lived under for their 8 year spree that put us behind the 8 ball ?

[Duseshoug]

You mean continuation of the plans that would be a continuation of the ones we lived under for their 8 year spree that put us behind the 8 ball ?

So now your argument is they have no NEW plans? But you admit they have plans? Well, we're getting somewhere. Please explain how Ryans plans is a continuation.

[Abaronos]

Sluggo, et al,

There is a missing perception.

(COMMENT)

Make no mistake --- the War is over. It has been over for several years. With the defeat of the conventional Opposing Force (OPFOR), the capture of Saddam, the destruction of the capacity and ability to wage war, the Post-Combat Phase began.

There may be some discussion on the successful way in which the US implemented the Post-Combat operations; political and military decisions that gave rise to the domestic insurgency; but the War ended when Iraq lost the ability and capacity to wage war.

The inability of the US to stabilize Iraq, install an honest government, and benefit the people of Iraq, is an entirely different issue. Those issues are directly related to US competency. There were critical mistakes made.

Sometimes, the best intentions turn-out poor results. But when the intentions are confused in the beginning, the results may be chaos.

(COMMENT)

The Iraqis, after seven (7) years, expected so much more and had hoped the Americans would have done so much better.


We hope that Iraq will evolve. But clearly, some Iraqis don't hold that same expectation. Even the Administration does not want to go on the record as to the legitimacy of the war or the outcome. The beginning was tainted and the exceptionally poor implementation of Post-Conflict restoration efforts (Military & Diplomatically) combine to give us the results we see today. While it's true, that the Historical Account might give a different perspective, it is in doubt even now by senior officials.

Most Respectfully,
R

I understand and somewhat agree with what you've said here. I guess for me, technicality aside for a moment, I do not see much else over there right now but war. It may not be the outright war between two governments until one is no longer but at the same time violence, conflict, military occupation, terrorism, pick whatever word makes you most happy is a still occurring. Whatever that word is, it would be hard to debate against the notion that civil conflict against the acting government over there right now will continue and perhaps escalate now that the US is taking more of a back seat.

Expectation is very important here, especially with the politically charged debate going on over the purpose of the Iraq War in the first place. And that goes both ways in that what we expect of the Iraq government to do for themselves. Or the politically charged debate behind setting a date to withdraw. You are right in that the expectation behind what the US could provide became lost or missed along the way. It is not a stable honest government over there that is for sure as suggested. Your comment about on "the inability of the US to stabilize Iraq, install an honest government, and benefit the people of Iraq, is an entirely different issue" is really not all that different from with respect to the Obama's view of our new role, direction he wants to go in handling Iraq, his speech, or the status of the conflict for everyone else. With respect to my post before it changes almost nothing for however many personnel (and their families) we are leaving over there.

But to your post and honestly the spirit of mine there is still a fight going on over there and in my opinion the historical account perspective of this war is going to most likely just continue to be politically driven debate. I suspect the true historical account will compare the Iraq war to conflicts in which the goal was not really achieved more so than a compare to a conflict in which an enemy government is no longer and a goal was achieved. I do not wish for that comparison choice of course, mostly out of my respect for the Military, but I do fear the politics involved in the Iraq War will only lead to blame for why it started, blame for why expectations were in some ways missed, then turned to blame for the outcome which is anything but peace (at least for now.)

[orison]

Speaking of that, where's my free oil we supposedly got by imperially taking over Iraq as has been alleged? Someone better tell the Stryker Brigade to get their asses back into Iraq.

Be careful, you might offend some liberal driving a 11mpg Escalade with a "NO BLOOD FOR OIL" bumber sticker on the back.

[Oxzzlvpg]

BTW, what was with this tired old talkikng point?

Unfortunately, over the last decade, we have not done what is necessary to shore up the foundation of our own prosperity. We have spent over a trillion dollars at war, often financed by borrowing from overseas. This, in turn, has short-changed investments in our own people, and contributed to record deficits. For too long, we have put off tough decisions on everything from our manufacturing base to our energy policy to education reform. As a result, too many middle class families find themselves working harder for less, while our nation's long-term competitiveness is put at risk. Any number of studies have shown that Iraq spending was minimal. Obamas one stimulus bill equaled the entire Iraq spending over 7 years.

[RSAccountssy]

BTW, what was with this tired old talkikng point?



Any number of studies have shown that Iraq spending was minimal. Obamas one stimulus bill equaled the entire Iraq spending over 7 years.

What, Obama thinks we're all so f**king stupid, however the stupid one is Obama.