[Kghikeds]

If in the future a driver should choose point blank to disobey his team he risks being sacked from the team, but how many other teams would hire that driver knowing he will not take orders. It could be a career ending stand.

And the FIA should have a rule against the team abusing their employees (drivers) just like in real life there are laws that do not allow this.

I guess if something like what you described happens than the driver will have to take his team to court and the team and the sport will lose face big time.

What pile of crap the FIA are producing right now, it's incredible.

[Seeseeskeva]

And the FIA should have a rule against the team abusing their employees (drivers) just like in real life there are laws that do not allow this.

I guess if something like what you described happens than the driver will have to take his team to court and the team and the sport will lose face big time.

What pile of crap the FIA are producing right now, it's incredible.

If an employee of mine disobeyed a direct instruction they a fired. You can have a rule that says I can't but rest assured I can find another legitimate reason to can them.

Any driver who is known to go against his team or make known what is private information can kiss their career good-bye. Just ask how Piquet jr. is doing looking for sponsors for a ride buy in the NASCAR truck series.

[Escamsrasiush]

So now when a driver signs for a team,he will understand that he is signing as a number2 driver,and his only CHANCE of winning is if the teams NUMBER1 driver,has retired,or has mechanical problems,that move him out of contention.
Or are we saying that half way through the season,the teams driver leading on points will be the "favoured driver",so in effect the driver on lower points will be expected to accept the role as back up driver ?
Because Vettel was rarely ahead of Webber,throughout the last season,and how many predicted that he would be 2010 world champion?

[Kghikeds]

If an employee of mine disobeyed a direct instruction they a fired. You can have a rule that says I can't but rest assured I can find another legitimate reason to can them.

Any driver who is known to go against his team or make known what is private information can kiss their career good-bye. Just ask how Piquet jr. is doing looking for sponsors for a ride buy in the NASCAR truck series.

Laws are laws and have to be respected.

Don't worry for Piquet he's got enough money to buy a seat if he wants it, and now with Renault paying him and his father an undisclosed amount they are even richer.

I prefer a Piquet who exposed his team for the cheats they were to an Alonso cheater who blackmails his team for no. 1 status.

[Gorlummm]

Laws are laws and have to be respected.

Don't worry for Piquet he's got enough money to buy a seat if he wants it, and now with Renault paying him and his father an undisclosed amount they are even richer.

I prefer a Piquet who exposed his team for the cheats they were to an Alonso cheater who blackmails his team for no. 1 status.

Your righteousness is so inspiring. I´m still worried you might be hurting yourself while reading and writing on this forum. I hope you are ok.

[Kghikeds]

Your righteousness is so inspiring. I´m still worried you might be hurting yourself while reading and writing on this forum. I hope you are ok.

I appreciate your kindness! I've never been better!

[Kghikeds]

Who would have thought it?

"Finally, we have said goodbye to this pointless hypocrisy," he said during an event at the Bologna Motor Show. "For us, Formula 1 is a team sport and we have always maintained that viewpoint and it should be treated as such."

Domenicali is confident that the new interpretation of the rules will ensure fair competition.

"The regulations already include points that prevent certain situations being managed in an extreme manner," he said. "The decision taken yesterday is very important."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88666

Fair for whom?!

[ReggieRed]

Fair for all , Ioan , my friend .

We've always had team orders , and the hypocricy to which he refers is all about the veiling , not about whether or not they are used .

At some point every team puts more in one driver's basket than the other .
This might occur over the course of the race , or the course of the season .

Some say that it should be an advantage given only after one of the two is mathematically out of the competition .
And , from the general public's view , it seems the only fair way to compete .

But , in the real world , it is hard to find two people with the same skills , able to work together , and compete as well .

We saw this year , teams adopting various different methods of managing drivers .
There was outrage over Ferrari favouring Fernando , and there was outrage at Red Bull favouring Vettel .
Neither team emerged unscathed under public scutiny , but , because the Bull railed against the very idea for the rest of the year , they came up rosier at the end .
This is despite the fact that it was one driver's obvious fear that a team so against team orders would relegate him to a number two position that drove him to keep the serious secret of a broken bone from his team .

My opinion , as an employer , is that you really have to be inside the situation before you can understand why they choose who they choose to lead the team .
The one who cleans the toilet must be lead to understand that it is essential to the business that the loo be clean and perfectly operational for the restaurant to operate .

It used to be an honourable position to be a number two .
The shoe tried to show that in Austria , by pushing Rubens to the top step , and , ironically , the FIA punished them for exactly that , not for making Rubens pull over for Michael , which was what the public hated .


You see , there are , and always have been team orders in F1 .

With them allowed officially , we are still afforded the luxury of being able to criticize when and if they are used , so I don't really get why folks would get upset about them being legal .
Teams will still face the fan scrutiny , and that also is a lot more "real world" , as they vote with dollars , and sponsors see this .

It does nobody any good to have the FIA in court deciding whether the term "purple monkey toaster orange" is a team order or not .
Let the public decide on that one .

[BostonDoctorTTT]

Slight correction, the rule was enforcable ONLY on a team being stupid enough to make it obvious, 99% of the time teams are far more subtle and without any proof (laywers tend to like little stuff like that) the FIA are powerless to act.

Good call rom the FIA... I wonder how Horner will play it next season now.

Nothing has changed for the good. Now everything is back under the ambiguous 151c, wherein the FIA can interpret and act as it wishes. The FIA is not a court of law and what a lawyer can prove or disprove is irrelevant to the wishes of the FIA. Most of the decisions the FIA makes wouldn't stand in a court of law, based upon the facts presented. Disrepute is in the eyes of the beholder.

I still say if a team is required to field 2 or more cars in any one event then the finishing order of those cars is the team's business. If a driver doesn't want to sign as a support or #2 driver, then don't. Go do something else for a living.

[Lolita Palmer]

Very good decision by the FIA. Team orders always existed and as Stefano said, this is just the end of the hipocrisy. And about people talking how this will affect the championship, well, it is too early guys. Next year the battle can be (at least in theory) between McLaren and Mercedes GP and not between Ferrari and RBR.

[Crilosajsamq]

Who would have thought it?



http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88666

Fair for whom?!

That you would ask this now...and not when Ferrari used team orders in favour of your beloved Michael Schumacher ?

[feqlmwtuqx]

It used to be an honourable position to be a number two .
The shoe tried to show that in Austria , by pushing Rubens to the top step

Turn it in!

Shoe only shoved his lacky up on top becuase of the crowds' reaction to Ferrari throwing the race - a race, and indeed race weekend, that Rubens dominated.

There was no honour in what happened in Austria in 2002 vis a vis Ferrari I am afraid.

[AnimeThat]

Turn it in!

Shoe only shoved his lacky up on top becuase of the crowds' reaction to Ferrari throwing the race - a race, and indeed race weekend, that Rubens dominated.

There was no honour in what happened in Austria in 2002 vis a vis Ferrari I am afraid.

I'd have to agree, though I can see Bagwans points. This was an extreme example of bending results that made this rule come about.

Really the still need to remove the grey area. As it is now the teams will still have to come up with coded messages or something to alter results, or face the possibility of "bring the sport into disrespute"


If they want to avoid that they should simply allow orders or any type, and change the title to reflect a team drivers title rather than an individual title. We all know that many WDCs were the result of team efforts anyway.

[ReggieRed]

Turn it in!

Shoe only shoved his lacky up on top becuase of the crowds' reaction to Ferrari throwing the race - a race, and indeed race weekend, that Rubens dominated.

There was no honour in what happened in Austria in 2002 vis a vis Ferrari I am afraid.

It was a cruel defeat for Rubens , Wilco , and truely he deserved the top step that day .
But , he wasn't defeated by Michael , rather , by his team , who had decided they would not risk another loss to a broken leg Salo/Irvine combo .

For sure , it was a reaction to the crowd , and the situation .
But , what more could Michael have done ?


Whether you hail or loath Ferrari for it's part in the situation aside , do you see Rubens as a fool for obeying at all , a whiner for not doing so until the final straight , or a team-player for giving up his position for the good of the team ?
Is he just a victim , or was there any honour in your eyes for what he did ?

[Buildityrit]

.
For sure , it was a reaction to the crowd , and the situation .
But , what more could Michael have done ?

I remember being outraged at the time, but not with Schumacher personally. He seemed visibly embarrassed and his gesture on the podium was well intended. I know people took their frustrations out on Ruben's but I can understand why someone would be rather naffed off that their hard work and dominance over a weekend was to have its credit given to another driver. Mclaren did a similar thing a couple of years before and I remember being incredably annoyed also.

F1 is a team sport but I don't wish to watch a GP with the expectation that teammates are going to let each other through at any minute. It takes the excitement and achievement out of it for me, but thats just my opinion.

[ReggieRed]

I'd have to agree, though I can see Bagwans points. This was an extreme example of bending results that made this rule come about.

Really the still need to remove the grey area. As it is now the teams will still have to come up with coded messages or something to alter results, or face the possibility of "bring the sport into disrespute"


If they want to avoid that they should simply allow orders or any type, and change the title to reflect a team drivers title rather than an individual title. We all know that many WDCs were the result of team efforts anyway.

I think the extreme bending that will result in the "disrepute" charge will be reserved more for a Flavio/Piquet incident .
As for the time element end(ie -when in the championship it is deemed ok), the public is the judge .

It is as it was .
And , if we all know anyway , why change it ?

[ReggieRed]

I remember being outraged at the time, but not with Schumacher personally. He seemed visibly embarrassed and his gesture on the podium was well intended. I know people took their frustrations out on Ruben's but I can understand why someone would be rather naffed off that their hard work and dominance over a weekend was to have its credit given to another driver. Mclaren did a similar thing a couple of years before and I remember being incredably annoyed also.

F1 is a team sport but I don't wish to watch a GP with the expectation that teammates are going to let each other through at any minute. It takes the excitement and achievement out of it for me, but thats just my opinion.

Yes , both were very embarassed by the team .
And , the accolades given for the team player were lost in the outrage at the move .
I remember expecting the move , and also the outrage that ensued .

[feqlmwtuqx]

It was a cruel defeat for Rubens , Wilco , and truely he deserved the top step that day .
But , he wasn't defeated by Michael , rather , by his team , who had decided they would not risk another loss to a broken leg Salo/Irvine combo .

For sure , it was a reaction to the crowd , and the situation .
But , what more could Michael have done ?


Whether you hail or loath Ferrari for it's part in the situation aside , do you see Rubens as a fool for obeying at all , a whiner for not doing so until the final straight , or a team-player for giving up his position for the good of the team ?
Is he just a victim , or was there any honour in your eyes for what he did ?

I see Rubens fecked over by his team. Much has been made by Brawn that Rubens' contract did not expressly say he was a number two bagwon. And yet, we all know that Rubens job was threatened if he did not move over.

If you think that is honourable, it explains your stance on employment law to a tee......

[iqxdvjgmat]

Fair for all , Ioan , my friend .

We've always had team orders , and the hypocricy to which he refers is all about the veiling , not about whether or not they are used .

At some point every team puts more in one driver's basket than the other .
This might occur over the course of the race , or the course of the season .

Some say that it should be an advantage given only after one of the two is mathematically out of the competition .
And , from the general public's view , it seems the only fair way to compete .

But , in the real world , it is hard to find two people with the same skills , able to work together , and compete as well .

We saw this year , teams adopting various different methods of managing drivers .
There was outrage over Ferrari favouring Fernando , and there was outrage at Red Bull favouring Vettel .
Neither team emerged unscathed under public scutiny , but , because the Bull railed against the very idea for the rest of the year , they came up rosier at the end .
This is despite the fact that it was one driver's obvious fear that a team so against team orders would relegate him to a number two position that drove him to keep the serious secret of a broken bone from his team .

My opinion , as an employer , is that you really have to be inside the situation before you can understand why they choose who they choose to lead the team .
The one who cleans the toilet must be lead to understand that it is essential to the business that the loo be clean and perfectly operational for the restaurant to operate .

It used to be an honourable position to be a number two .
The shoe tried to show that in Austria , by pushing Rubens to the top step , and , ironically , the FIA punished them for exactly that , not for making Rubens pull over for Michael , which was what the public hated .


You see , there are , and always have been team orders in F1 .

With them allowed officially , we are still afforded the luxury of being able to criticize when and if they are used , so I don't really get why folks would get upset about them being legal .
Teams will still face the fan scrutiny , and that also is a lot more "real world" , as they vote with dollars , and sponsors see this .

It does nobody any good to have the FIA in court deciding whether the term "purple monkey toaster orange" is a team order or not .
Let the public decide on that one .

That's in case any member needed a visual supporting the fact that every team has team orders, veiled or not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHd8n1D4wkM

[ButKnillinoi]

The first decent rule change for years. Now our favourite team sport can be run as a team sport again.