[lalpphilalk]

You don't need to hit kids to teach them respect and discipline, if anything that makes them worse in the future, you can easy teach kids respect without using violence which is wrong against children. My friends family who I use to hang around with when I was a Kid, he's got like 5 brothers, his dad is some nutter and his mum isn't much better, any time they did anything wrong, beat them up m8, broom stick round the head or a belt round the body, did it help them? well there all older now and all bloody nutters and crinimals.

Well there is over-disciplining them, which is it sounds like what they did.

I think spanking can definitely be a way of teaching a kid a lesson because TBH, time-outs and grounding doesn't do much to make someone never want to do something again. However, if im going to get a whack on the ass... I might not want to do it. \

I had very good parents and sometimes I got smacked occasionally for some things but I think I turned out allright...or so i hope !

[irrehoobe]

You don't need to hit kids to teach them respect and discipline, if anything that makes them worse in the future, you can easy teach kids respect without using violence which is wrong against children. My friends family who I use to hang around with when I was a Kid, he's got like 5 brothers, his dad is some nutter and his mum isn't much better, any time they did anything wrong, beat them up m8, broom stick round the head or a belt round the body, did it help them? well there all older now and all bloody nutters and crinimals.

Dont make the mistake of confusing discipline with abuse. A swift backhand across the head for doing somthing wrong is fine. A fist in the face or a broomstick over the head isnt.

[Dvjkefdw]

The UK law system is a disgrace, on top of that the law about "smacking" your children is a disgrace too, you not even allowed to disapline your own child anymore

Discpline doesn't have to involve physical violence. It's a classic sign of poor parenting if one has to resort to that if they can't get a small child to behave. As somebody who has worked with thousands of children over the years, from all kinds of backgrounds and upbringing, I've found that physical discipline is at best no better than non-physical discipline and on that basis, I don't believe there are sound arguments in favour for it.

I do believe that 12 years is just not enough, he'll be my age when he comes out and life is far from over.

That's assuming his plea for parole (assuming he takes it in 12 years time) is successful. If he continues to commit offences throughout his time in jail, it's highly unlikely that it will be awarded.

[irrehoobe]

Discpline doesn't have to involve physical violence. It's a classic sign of poor parenting if one has to resort to that if they can't get a small child to behave. As somebody who has worked with thousands of children over the years, from all kinds of backgrounds and upbringing, I've found that physical discipline is at best no better than non-physical discipline and on that basis, I don't believe there are sound arguments in favour for it.

As someone whos worked with children for so many years in such great numbers, you surely know when a kid just needs a good whollup. If not, Id hate to see your kids. There was plenty of **** I did growing up that I deserved a good whonk on the noggin for, and by golly, I got it. Far as I can tell, It didnt hurt me any. Dont have a criminal record, dont do drugs in any way shape or form. Dont steal from people, pay my taxes, do my schoolwork, function well in a job environment, and hold the door for people I dont even know, all while smiling at the postman as he walks by and giving a local veteran his coffee at my expense at caribou. Yes, I directly attribute my attitude, morals, and good behavior to the fact that once in a while, I needed to be given a good hard smack. Never got an abusive beating, and yes, Im quite aware of the difference. So dont bother twisting my words or playing psychology games either.

Frankly, I find the bold part to your quote insulting. There's nothing poor about the way my parents raised me, in morals, judgment, or behavior. Its not poor parenting to physically discipline your child when they deserve it. Its poor parenting to ABUSE your child when they deserve nothing more than a swift kick in the ass or when you just feel like hitting something.

[brulpcoersero]

Dont make the mistake of confusing discipline with abuse. A swift backhand across the head for doing somthing wrong is fine. A fist in the face or a broomstick over the head isnt.

I know this, but still hitting a kid round the head still isn't right, even if it is a swift backhand across the head, there's better ways of teaching them respect.

[lalpphilalk]

I know this, but still hitting a kid round the head still isn't right, even if it is a swift backhand across the head, there's better ways of teaching them respect.

I dont know about the head but a smack on the rear is much better idea

[irrehoobe]

I know this, but still hitting a kid round the head still isn't right, even if it is a swift backhand across the head, there's better ways of teaching them respect.

Please, tell me how to do it then, Im not being a douche, im seriously interested. There comes a point where words fall on deaf ears, so Im wondering how you deal with a child that wont listen no matter how many times you tell them something is wrong.

Grounding is pretty much a joke, most kids I know have TVs and everything else in their rooms. Oh noes, stuck in my room with nothin but me and my PS3/360/PC.

You kicked that old man in the shin and laughed! No desert for a week for you! ... that'll teach ya!!! ....

[Dvjkefdw]

...stuff...

You seem to be suggesting that the physical domination of children as being the only means of 'correctly' raising a child - as I mentioned before, I have seen more than enough evidence of children being raised without ever being smacked, not once, and have turned out just fine; I've also seen plenty of evidence of children who have been smacked, and still turned out fine and those that have been smacked (note, not abused) and turned out not in the least bit fine. This shows that physical discipline is no better than non-physical discipline, when examined over a large sample.

So for myself, I can see no reason as to why physical discipline should be used at all. To me, a smack is the easiest/quickest/laziest form of discipline, which is why it is so frequently used (and for all ages) - for children, it simply tells them "that action is rewarded by pain" but little else. It is control through fear, not understanding; it's education through punishment, not reward.

If people think that's fine, then go ahead - do whatever you think is best - but I'll never condone it.

[Dvjkefdw]

Grounding is pretty much a joke, most kids I know have TVs and everything else in their rooms. Oh noes, stuck in my room with nothin but me and my PS3/360/PC.

You kicked that old man in the shin and laughed! No desert for a week for you! ... that'll teach ya!!! ....

And such methods are just as 'poor parenting skills' as resorting to physical punishment. A single thread is poor place to go into a lengthy discussion about parenting in general but you're certainly right in suggesting that there are plenty of cases where the punishments issued by parents carry little weight.

[irrehoobe]

You seem to be suggesting that the physical domination of children as being the only means of 'correctly' raising a child - as I mentioned before, I have seen more than enough evidence of children being raised without ever being smacked, not once, and have turned out just fine; I've also seen plenty of evidence of children who have been smacked, and still turned out fine and those that have been smacked (note, not abused) and turned out not in the least bit fine. This shows that physical discipline is no better than non-physical discipline, when examined over a large sample.

So for myself, I can see no reason as to why physical discipline should be used at all. To me, a smack is the easiest/quickest/laziest form of discipline, which is why it is so frequently used (and for all ages) - for children, it simply tells them "that action is rewarded by pain" but little else. It is control through fear, not understanding; it's education through punishment, not reward.

If people think that's fine, then go ahead - do whatever you think is best - but I'll never condone it.

Human beings are animals. Smart ones, granted, but animals none the less. "Physical Domination" as you put it, or "Learned Response" as Id prefer, is PART of the process of raising a child / offspring / whathaveyou. Teaching respect, morals, good behavior, manners, math, science, religion (if you so choose), ect ect ect. Are also parts of raising a child.

Animals learn quickly that running headfirst into a cactus hurts, therefor, they no longer run head first into cacti when they encounter them next. Hell, go stick your hand on a hot stove for a while, gonna smart like a bitch, then you arnt going to put your hand on a hot stove again on purpose. Pain exists for a reason, it is a tool to prevent harm to onesself. If an action elicits pain to the body, that means the body doesnt want to do that action again for fear of hurting its self. Physical discipline uses the bodys pain-prevention skills as a COMPLEMENT to reinforcement of an idea or philosophy, it is not the only part of teaching.

Hence parents who hit their kids when they do something wrong, but dont EXPLAIN what they did wrong, or more importantly WHY it was wrong, wont get anywhere with helping their child to grow up. They'll just make them little shitfaced brats who are used to being hit.

[Dvjkefdw]

Human beings are animals. Smart ones, granted, but animals none the less. "Physical Domination" as you put it, or "Learned Response" as Id prefer, is PART of the process of raising a child / offspring / whathaveyou. Teaching respect, morals, good behavior, manners, math, science, religion (if you so choose), ect ect ect. Are also parts of raising a child.

We shall obviously have to agree to disagree - I simply see no case for the inclusion of child smacking as a form of instruction (and I certainly don't agree that your cactus analogy is valid). One can successfully raise a child without the use of it, thus it is not a necessary 'part' of the formative process.

[Fainnamoony]

You kicked that old man in the shin and laughed! No desert for a week for you! ... that'll teach ya!!! ....

So the idea is that the best way to teach them that hitting people is wrong is to hit them?

[irrehoobe]

So the idea is that the best way to teach them that hitting people is wrong is to hit them?

Read the next few posts, and you'll see my reasoning. Physical discipline is not the same as random acts of unjustified violence, long as you do more than just hit them.

Why do people seem to take only the "Hit your child" into context, and ignore the rest of the argument. Its not just about hitting your kids here people, regardless of how much you want to bury your head in the sand and not read the rest of what people are saying.

[lalpphilalk]

So the idea is that the best way to teach them that hitting people is wrong is to hit them?

No thats usually a self-taught lesson when they get an ass kicking

[Fainnamoony]

Why do people seem to take only the "Hit your child" into context

Because my son who is only 7, can have things explained to him without having to hit him, ergo violence is just violence. There are loads of other non violent ways to punish a child. And that is something I have learnt from experiences on both sides of the fence.

At the end of the day seeing as how you are just an animal do I have the right to hit you should you do something I deem as wrong? What if your child sees you doing something that you have previously told them off for, should they hit you?

[Seisyvose]

I once stopped some kids from chucking rubbish into my garden; I then wake at 6am to police kicking my door in.

I was taken back to the police station for 6 hours on threat to kill even though I had not done anything, all it has teach me is if you see some kids doing something don’t bother it just isn’t worth it.

what really p***** me off is when I walk around town and some dirty bag head drops a needle in front of a busy shopping mall, all the police do is have a gentle chat no fine or anything, if I chucked an apple core I would have a £60 fine.

It should be 1 year for dropping a needle.

Also the fact that needles unless used for some illness should be classed as a weapon as I know if a smack head was to rob you or defend his self that would be the first thing he pulls out.

[lalpphilalk]

I once stopped some kids from chucking rubbish into my garden; I then wake at 6am to police kicking my door in.

I was taken back to the police station for 6 hours on threat to kill even though I had not done anything, all it has teach me is if you see some kids doing something don’t bother it just isn’t worth it.

what really p***** me off is when I walk around town and some dirty bag head drops a needle in front of a busy shopping mall, all the police do is have a gentle chat no fine or anything, if I chucked an apple core I would have a £60 fine.

It should be 1 year for dropping a needle.

Also the fact that needles unless used for some illness should be classed as a weapon as I know if a smack head was to rob you or defend his self that would be the first thing he pulls out.

Everytime I hear about the police in the UK, it just sounds so ridiculous...always the dumbest things get people arrested.

[GuitarLoverBe]

We shall obviously have to agree to disagree - I simply see no case for the inclusion of child smacking as a form of instruction (and I certainly don't agree that your cactus analogy is valid). One can successfully raise a child without the use of it, thus it is not a necessary 'part' of the formative process.

I see more spoiled brats at the department store get their way or a new toy just because they throw a fit and cause a scene, instead of the parents just plain not giving in. When I was a brat, I was occasionally physically disciplined with a spanking.

However, had I done something out in public similar to what I see those spoiled brats do, my parents told me I was getting a good spanking once we got home. And they always kept their promises. TBH, the knowledge that once we got home I was getting a few good raps on the behind with the paddle (holes drilled into it spelling my name and everything lol) was much more torture than the 10 seconds or so of pain that was inflicted. Needless to say, it hardly took more than a couple times before I learned how to behave myself.

Kids are not like dogs where by the time you smack them on the ass for pissing on the carpet in front of you they've already forgotten about it and don't realize why you've done so, you can simply tell them about it beforehand and the couple hours of that knowledge is enough.

However, anything more than a few smart raps on the behind is uncalled for, and if you're one of those people who do it all the time, it certainly loses it's meaning and will have the exact opposite effect.

[irrehoobe]

I see more spoiled brats at the department store get their way or a new toy just because they throw a fit and cause a scene, instead of the parents just plain not giving in. When I was a brat, I was occasionally physically disciplined with a spanking.

However, had I done something out in public similar to what I see those spoiled brats do, my parents told me I was getting a good spanking once we got home. And they always kept their promises. TBH, the knowledge that once we got home I was getting a few good raps on the behind with the paddle (holes drilled into it spelling my name and everything lol) was much more torture than the 10 seconds or so of pain that was inflicted. Needless to say, it hardly took more than a couple times before I learned how to behave myself.

Kids are not like dogs where by the time you smack them on the ass for pissing on the carpet in front of you they've already forgotten about it and don't realize why you've done so, you can simply tell them about it beforehand and the couple hours of that knowledge is enough.

However, anything more than a few smart raps on the behind is uncalled for, and if you're one of those people who do it all the time, it certainly loses it's meaning and will have the exact opposite effect.

Pretty much the point i've been arguing for the last 4 or 5 posts.

[Yb4bulVR]

One can successfully raise a child without the use of it, thus it is not a necessary 'part' of the formative process.

It really depends on where you are brought up. Sure you can raise your child without punishing them and he'll be a good kid when he grows up if he's brought up in a good environment. But if he's brought up in a bad environment where drugs, fighting, stealing is the norm than I don't think there is anyway he'll be a good kid when he grows up unless he is punished for his mistakes when he is younger.

Mind you I was brought up in the latter so I know what its like. People brought up in good environments tend to be spoiled little brats.