[Trikaduliana]

I'm sure many of you will agree that color doesn't matter and that gameness is the fundamental trait of the apbt. However, I've noticed that a lot of wiry built blue dogs are labled as an amstaff or ambully, even though the dog is an apbt pedigree wise and has no resemblance towards an amstaff or ambully. I've also noticed that a lot of rednosed apbts have more wrinkles and appears to have a narrower head than other coat types, but that could be because red is a light color and that the wrinkles are easier seen in a red dog than black, brown, etc. I've also noticed many rednosed apbts automatically be labled gamebred. Now probably the most agreed upon statement I've heard from virtually everyone is that when it comes to merles, the dog is guaranteed a hound mix. Also today as a friend of mine and I were walking our dogs, both apbts, a guy came up to us and said "that is a nice apbt and amstaff." Out of curiosity, we asked him how did he know my dog was an apbt and my friend's dog an amstaff and he replid, "your dog is black and white, clearly an apbt while your friend's dog is a fawn, like all amstaffs." So apparently amstaffs are only fawn, they don't come in brindle, black, etc. So what is everyone's thoughts about this topic? Does color indeed matter?

[Adwetyren]

If color matters to a breeder..their dog is automatically an amstaff (show bred) dog. At least thats the way I look at it. Same for weight, head size, etc etc etc.

[bWn4h8QD]

Color matters a lot to me, I only like the red red noses. I heard they were meaner

[Angeheade]

well ive heard all brindles were larger than regular pits and blues were the best fighters ... imo people who think like that arent very educated in what they are talking about, they go off hear-say, and are generally associated with and get their info from BYB

[HitAttetlyTek]

Well i've heard that Colby didn't have any blue dogs in his yard (still doesn't, by the looks of it), and that he said there were no blue dogs until the amstaff was registered. But... how would blue just show up? but anyway, that quote or whatever (can't find it) is probably the source of that statement.

Sorrel dogs are predictable in color... red family lines are predicatable in color.. so of course people are going to associate these colors and patterns with certain traits.

right now, most of the UKC top APBTs are a blue fawn color, so that's prob the source of that statement... (mines prob. gonna be!)

As far as merle goes, it was introduced to APBT's through the Catahoula Leopard Dog, as many southerners mix the 2 breeds for better hog-dogs. (or so they think) So, through faked papers and such, the merle gene has leaked into a small percentage of the APBT gene pool.

it's in the eye of the beholder, and any dog that is exclusively bred for color should not have been bred. FIRST you pick for other traits, such as conformation, drive, etc. THEN you look for color.

[Trikaduliana]

Well i've heard that Colby didn't have any blue dogs in his yard (still doesn't, by the looks of it), and that he said there were no blue dogs until the amstaff was registered. But... how would blue just show up? but anyway, that quote or whatever (can't find it) is probably the source of that statement.

Sorrel dogs are predictable in color... red family lines are predicatable in color.. so of course people are going to associate these colors and patterns with certain traits.

right now, most of the UKC top APBTs are a blue fawn color, so that's prob the source of that statement... (mines prob. gonna be!)

As far as merle goes, it was introduced to APBT's through the Catahoula Leopard Dog, as many southerners mix the 2 breeds for better hog-dogs. (or so they think) So, through faked papers and such, the merle gene has leaked into a small percentage of the APBT gene pool.

it's in the eye of the beholder, and any dog that is exclusively bred for color should not have been bred. FIRST you pick for other traits, such as conformation, drive, etc. THEN you look for color.

Well actually, the blue dogs are related towards the old family rednoses since both come from the Lightner strain of dogs. There has also been several blue dogs that did very well in the pit.

I'm not sure of the merle gene being from catahoulas, a lot of apbts that are merle could indeed be mixed with catahoula curs and other hounds, but there are also pure merle apbts. I believe ABK can elaborate on this. I just made this thread primarily to see what is everyone's opinion on the important of color within working trials as well as conformation within the ADBA,AADR,UKC,AKC, etc. For example, does a blue dog have a lesser chance of winning in the ADBA and a higher chance in the ADBA. Also, does the color of the dog influence the minds of the judges within working trials? I've heard of an incident involving two TnT/Watchdog dogs that were littermates. One was blue while the other black and the black dog placed while his blue belly mate did not.

[HitAttetlyTek]

Well actually, the blue dogs are related towards the old family rednoses since both come from the Lightner strain of dogs. There has also been several blue dogs that did very well in the pit.

I'm not sure of the merle gene being from catahoulas, a lot of apbts that are merle could indeed be mixed with catahoula curs and other hounds, but there are also pure merle apbts. I believe ABK can elaborate on this. I just made this thread primarily to see what is everyone's opinion on the important of color within working trials as well as conformation within the ADBA,AADR,UKC,AKC, etc. For example, does a blue dog have a lesser chance of winning in the ADBA and a higher chance in the ADBA. Also, does the color of the dog influence the minds of the judges within working trials? I've heard of an incident involving two TnT/Watchdog dogs that were littermates. One was blue while the other black and the black dog placed while his blue belly mate did not.

hmm.. I'm not the most informed on the different lines etc., but I was covering the reasoning behind the way some folks think.

I agree that some judges prefer certain traits in a breed, whether it be the color, ear crop, or amount of conditioning. It's hard not to be preferential and unbiased in a sport that involves visual interpretation of a written standard on a moving animal!

[DagoIgnog]

Color has nothing to do with anything and is not a reflection of the total dog. Both APBTs and AmStaffs come in a variety of colors. So people who have told you differently have no clue what they are talking about.

[Nzmoafzn]

Color doesn't matter to me very much. I am a "pet bull" person. I don't need a show dog or a working dog, I just need a couch cuddler and a buddy to keep me company on walks and amuse me playing in the yard. For me the thing that matters most is personality and temperament.

I will admit that I was quite attracted to the blue dogs and wanted one as our next dog until I found out about the increased rates of skin problems in those dogs.

[pageup85]

Even some of the big names of history have had personal preferences and prejudices. I know some guys used to say all black dogs were not game, others would swear that the OFRN's were the gamest and meanest of them all and anything red with a red nose was the same. Its not a new phenomenon and would be quite expected to become more pronounced in a show situation. One of the best little dogs I have seen for a while has a black nose, red coat full of smut but has the structure of a great dog. It has done very well at the one show it has been to.

[fudelholf]

TEMPERMENT and personality is MORE important for me.
color should always be the last thing on the list.
i love all colors, esp BLACK AND TAN, TRI colors.

[Nzmoafzn]

I have recently fallen in love with the black brindle, especially in the sun

[LongaDonga]

I have met a respected dog person to whom color matters. Once when I did a straight up Eli/Vindicator cross, he said he wanted a black pup b/c the black ones would carry more Eli traits. I didn't think much of it at the time b/c I too thought color didn't matter, but it turned out he was right! All the black dogs in the litter favored their mother in both appearance & habits, while all the red ones favored their father!

Here is an article from the Bull Terrier times concerning the use of color in breeding. A very interesting read:

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BULL TERRIER TIMES COMPILATION
Colour Type In Breeding

Many times colour type selection has been overlooked in breeding game dogs, especially in the USA where I went to visit big yards of dogs from 35 up to 250 dogs at a time. It surprised me that only one or two men did this and they are legends in the breeding of game dogs, these men are Floyd Boudreaux and Jerry Clemmons. Over the years we have done the same and with great success, to say the least. If you have lack of space or have a small genetic pool, then you can actually tighten up your blood/family by selecting on type and colour. It is never a guarantee as game dogs come in all colours and shapes, but for instance lets say you where breeding the alligator line, and you only access to say 4 to 10 dogs, then I suggest you use this technique to your breeding program.

If I breed for Ch. Alligator blood then I want them to look like him in every way, which means black coat, red eyes, long body and all the other qualities this dog was known for. Now I was in the yard of Gary Hammond and he showed me the purest Alligator dog he had, and to my surprise it was a buckskin and white. Although I never said anything out of respect, to me this was a big shock as I found out that the Alligator breeders over there try to have as much Alligator or his son (Rufus) shown in a pedigree, but they did not select on colour or type.

I realized that the purity of them families dropped by 40% in my mind, as they bred on a paper %. I also realized why they could breed much tighter now than we could, because they stack and pack various amounts of different dogs. With colours from white to brindle, red to buckskin and black in to the genetic pool, the result is a great diversity of different acting and looking dogs out of the same breeding.

To my mind this shows a lack of understanding in breeding dogs, they see it as a short cut if you are able to keep 50/100/200 dogs. In the US they call this a breeding crap shoot, which more or less confirms their way of thinking on breeding. Now, we have been breeding better dogs % wise in this part of the world, probably because of lack of space and could not afford to feed so many dogs or just had dogs that lacked quality.

We have all had are mother or aunty say - "Johnny boy you look and act like your grand-father in every way". In theory you are only carrying 25% of your grand-fathers gene pool, but in real life you could be a throw back to him and be carrying 75/80% of his gene pool, and this how it works in the dogs. Too often people look at the pedigree and not the dog, and breed such and so to such and so - because it looks good on paper and yes then the outcome becomes like a crap shoot.

If I breed for the Alligator type of dog, the apple must fall near the tree. He doesn't have to be a duplicate, but the one that resembles him the closest will join the breeding program. You might say his buckskin brother is much better quality than him - why don't you use him? My answer to that is a dog like that would be good for the box, but he definitely has a genetic build up of dogs prior to Alligator. I am trying to base my breeding on his colour type and quality, so you can see there is a difference between breeding stock and brood stock. Of course the brood stock must be of the same quality as the stud stock, this you do by weeding out the bad dogs and you will be left with a couple dogs that resemble the original dog you are breeding for.

From this foundation stock, this is where your breeding really starts. And you will find your breeding is a hell of a lot tighter, with less breeding needed and you are less dependent on the name of a particular dog. This means that a dog that has Alligator 6 times in his pedigree is much tighter and purer than a dog that has Alligator in his pedigree 12 or 15 times.
Recognizing type and colour is a very unrecognized tool for breeding good quality game dogs.

Another example of of breeding good dogs, or should I say a VERY good example is the Nigerino dogs. I am sure that most of you know this dog, or have at least heard of him. Well take a look at his pedigree, he is 75% Eli Jr and 25% Gr Ch Art. From that Art blood, 50% is Eli too, meaning 50% of Art is Claytons Java. And in the pedigree of Nigerino she is only 12 1/2 % present, but this bitch had a phenomenal influence on Nigerino and Art was his grand daddy.

Now Gr Ch Art was red and won all his matches in short order. Some say he was blessed by the Eli Jr style which is true to a certain extent I would say. But Nigerino got his ability, his style, his colour and his conformation from Art. Now Nigerino was a prepotent dog and produced lots and lots of dogs red in colour with black masks like he and Art had. All the way down from Art to Nigerino his grandson who produced his son Red Rover, who produced our bitch Rosey. They are red dogs with a blackish mask and perform in a very quick way.

If we start looking at the pedigree the dominant dog by far is Eli Jr, I believe he is there 35 times. If she carries 5 times Gr Ch Nigerino/ Gr Ch Art, then yes she is still an Eli Jr dog. Well nothing could be further from the truth, she is a complete throwback to Gr Ch Nigerino and Gr Ch Art., and there you have your answer I guess. Your questions and papers are important of course, but nothing is more important than using the type and colour tool, if you are breeding for a certain dog.

JAMES BOND.

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As for the merle comment - - I shan't get into the same old tired argument over it. Anyone who wants to get some serious information about merle in the APBT, please see the links below:

Abundantly Blessed Kennels | American Pit Bull Terriers

Abundantly Blessed Kennels | American Pit Bull Terriers

As for those who THINK they know about merle in the APBT & aren't inclined to learn, I would kindly request you keep your *opinions* to yourself until you can come up with some hard facts. Not opinion. FACT.

Blessings ...

[WGfg4CCZ]

I have seen some blue color APBTs that I definitely considered APBTs.

In the grand scheme of things color doesn't matter. One might have a preference in a certain color, based on aesthetics alone, but it shouldn't be the sole reason for getting a dog/pup, and it doesn't make the dog better or worse.

[LongaDonga]

Very true. Good dogs come in all colors, bad dogs come in all colors. I say judge the dog but what's on the inside, not what's on the outside. But that is just me.

Blessings ...

[minowz]

i agree ,color doesnt matter to me,however when it comes to blue dogs,it is amost always an ambully,i have seen one or two apbt's that were blue color.i once spoke to an old dogman and he told me that they saw blue dogsd being brought in back in the day adn that they were amstaff's,and they had their *ss's handed to em

[ebookinfo]

I prefer the blue's but thats just because i think there beautiful lol

[voksveta]

I dont think color matters! I love all colors...it just depends on the dog

I must say...blue/grey bullies are at the top of my list though!

[fudelholf]

temperment matters to me the most.

[Assunkkensatt]

Working ability then color but if I'm shelling out the cash and have a choice of the same working ability between two dogs I'll always go black.